C&L equivalent of a Tillig turnout

Discussion in 'Hand built track' started by dpaws, Nov 27, 2018.

  1. dpaws

    dpaws Full Member

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    I'm contemplating a little OO DCC layout that has only a single turnout; if I'm ever going to have a finescale track layout this is my chance! Flexi is easily solved with C&L's off-the-shelf nickel silver offerings but naturally would like the turnout to match aesthetically.

    At present the plan uses a Tilling Elite #85344 & can accommodate an extra 19mm beyond the present heel if that helps, dimensions & geometry etc below:

    Tillig 85344.jpg
    Snip20181127_3.png

    So help! How would I go about having a C&L version of the above? (or a Peco medium radius as that fits too if I back up 19mm....)

    From what I've deduced so far the 11° frog angle requires a 5.25ish turnout number, so that's typically with an A blade (yard setting), so I'd want a A5.25? I assume I must be fairly close as these A5 and exotic equivalents seem to be reasonable approximations after a casual comparison with untrained eyes!:

    A5 comparison.jpg

    - or -

    a 15° overall divergence is a ratio of 3/20... so a 1:7 ish with a slight tweak... and that's usually a B type blade, but a B7 seems to be a very different beast, it's huge!

    I must confess to being a tad confuffled!

    Thanks guys...
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2018
  2. Toto

    Toto Staff Member Founder Administrator

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    Pass ..... A different and very commendable art altogether.
     
  3. dpaws

    dpaws Full Member

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    Well thanks anyways Toto... I agree, a black art of enviable skill and patience - and eyesight!!
     
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  4. York Paul

    York Paul Full Member

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    Hi dpaws,
    Firstly as a scratch builder in O Gauge welcome to the forum and it goes without saying if I can help with advice and info regards the dark art of Permanent Way I will. Generally speaking in modeling finescale realistic track building it is often best practice to attempt emulating the real thing as near as practical, which means by marking out in pencil the chord length of the radius of the curve next to where the track will go on the baseboard you have given yourself a datum line to work from, you can then set the timbering arrangement of the points (C&L Track Building Systems) against that line and starting with the Crossing Vee (not "frogs"... they are little green amphibians which make croaking noises and jump around in ponds) you will get the necessary curvature you need. Now to give some idea (in O scale) of distances my points are all hand built B7, B8 and B9, the B7 is 21.5 inches, B8 is 23 inches and B9 25 inches in length but that is the trade off to gain something that is correct, the downside of using Peco ready mades is that the timbering arrangement is totally incorrect with the longest end timber being "bent at an angle in the centre" ... something that would never happen in the real thing, this is where scratchbuilders looking for the "super real" seek to overcome these issues which other modelers are quite happy to let go on. So if you had the space you could lay in a B7 by adjusting the turnout side angle to be a little more acute or you could lay in an A5 by "flattening" the turnout side but you may find the crossing vee on an A5 gives you an unnecessary kink in the curvature. It all depends on what you want to get out of the layout in operation or you could put transitions in the curvature to allow for a flatter angle turnout such as a B7. Here is a picture of my B7 / B8 crossover which hopefully offers a view of how transitions on curved track of differing radii work.

     
  5. dpaws

    dpaws Full Member

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    Many thanks for you kind reply Paul, and may I say, what beautiful transitions you have indeed!!! Fine looking trackwork, looks super in 'O'... on fact, doesn't everything just look superb in 'O'... I digress, back down to OO earth with a bump it is then!

    I've attached the overview of the micro-inspired sketch from Railmodeller to give a feel as to what's going on - essentially it's a cramped yard feeding some sort of industry or goods facility in the bottom right corner.

    ELITE #3 LAYOUT ALL.jpg

    The (orange) traverser bed in situ is 78mm long, but this will be extended up to 400mm when the layout's in use. Since my posting I've tweaked and fiddled and overlaid and sworn a couple of times; the net result being a larger turnout (9° frog) that must be closer to the geometry you suggested. On paper the diverging radius transitions from 1350mm to approx. 800mm prior to reaching the turntable; a tad severe but not unknown in a yard I'm sure. The 3D suggests that I might get even away with it!

    Snip20181127_6.png

    I've chopped a couple of virtual sleepers worth off the tie bar end so the turnout is now hard up to the traverser interface. Of course one option I have is to retain the Tillig and blend the sleepering from 'Tillig' to 'C&L' along the diverging length of flexi until it reaches the turntable, which would also contribute to a slight forced perspective effect - i.e. from HO to OO over the 325mm depth of the baseboard which is my intention for the scenic elements. Alternatively I could build the kit version of Tillig's 9° turnout onto C&L sleepering. Next time I'm ashore and home I'll lay it all out in real size and ponder further. I've gleaned from Martin Wayne's excellent Templot commentaries and illustration that nothing seems standard at all!

    ELITE #3 LAYOUT CENTRE.jpg traverser dimesions.jpg Tillig kit 85451.jpg martin wayne A5.png
     

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    Last edited: Nov 27, 2018
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  6. paul_l

    paul_l Staff Member Administrator

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    I would tend to make the traverser two roads wide aligned up with both tracks, allowing both run round and storage of a second train.

    Paul
     
  7. dpaws

    dpaws Full Member

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    Ahh but it will be - there are two orange roads with three stopping positions across the traverser. The orange track sections are only 78mm long, mounted on a 6mm alu plate that is two tracks width wide (approx 92mm) and this 78mm x 92mm plate will be bolted to the top of the (78x58) traverser carriage. I then add out-rigger extensions to these 78mm tracks taking it out to 300mm+ train length, or I could simply use 300mm loco-lifts which would locate onto the 78mm stubs.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2018
  8. Gary

    Gary Will the real Gary please stand up... Staff Member Administrator

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    Interesting topic. I look forward to see how you develop the point and the layout.

    Have you looked at using a code 75 curved point crossing V which has a narrower crossing V than a standard Peco code 75 medium point ?

    Cheers, Gary.
     
  9. dpaws

    dpaws Full Member

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    EDIT: (I went off on a tangent of confusion....)

    The usual answer would usually be to commission a templot drawing and then build a bespoke turnout.... and cue Mr Templot himself to my rescue!
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2018
  10. Martin Wynne

    Martin Wynne Full Member

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    Hi,

    What you are looking for is an A-6 turnout having a curviform-type V-crossing. Here it is in Templot:

    00_bf_a6_cu.png

    Here's PDF template of that (be sure to set scaling = None, 100% when printing it).

    cheers,

    Martin.
     

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  11. dpaws

    dpaws Full Member

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    Martin! What an absolute pleasure to find you lurking in these dark corners! Thank you for taking the time to look at this on my behalf.

    Now I don't see so much difference between the Tillig and the Templot (other than the stated radius has reduced from 1350mm (Tillig) to 1117mm) - so is your curviform A6 the C&L equivalent to my Tillig turnout as per my initial question?

    and...

    if I now move the goal posts from OO 16.5mm to the more pleasingly proportioned OO-SF at 16.2mm (the main incentive for me to consider bespoke track work over RTR) then how do things changes and is the A6 curviform geometry still viable in the space?
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2018
  12. dpaws

    dpaws Full Member

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    Thanks Gary - armed with google and the term "curviform" the penny has dropped as to what you were alluding to; the curve from the divergence continues through the turnout to the end of the blades rather than the curve-straight-curve sequence that I'd achieve with a regular turnout. Hadn't really thought about it before!

    When Martin's around it's amazing how you find yourself needing something that you didn't even realise existed only moments before!!

    http://templot.com/companion/fit_turnout_to_existing_curves.php - a tutorial complete with soothing piano music to alleviate the inevitable stress - genius!!!
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2018
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  13. dpaws

    dpaws Full Member

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    I've had a tweak and a fiddle and then dusted off the laser jet... Is it just me or are glue guns ten times more dangerous to your finger tips than soldering irons ever were?!? :confused:

    STRATFORD WORKS MICRO.jpg

    Peco's 75 Bullhead flexi and a single large radius Bullhead Unifrog turnout, very simple. I'd gone over to Tillig Elite because of the single piece blades but of course now we have the new Peco track work and remarkably the geometry works out just nicely (approx a B6 I believe)

    View attachment 9946
     

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    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018 at 2:54 AM
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  14. paul_l

    paul_l Staff Member Administrator

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    What is the shaft diameter of the turntable ?

    Paul
     
  15. dpaws

    dpaws Full Member

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    Sorry Paul, dunno - it's one of the German fully indexing tables with integrated electronics. It doesn't use a conventional shaft for a central drive, instead it winds itself around with cogs in the pit wall; this sorta fing...

    Snip20181205_13.png

    (sadly this means that it'll never look wow either, but it'll do for now while I feel an 'O' gauge version bubbling away in my head!).
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2018
  16. jakesdad13

    jakesdad13 Staff Member Moderator

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    Nah, just you mate :avatar::avatar::avatar:
     

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