Choosing a motor and gear set for a loco

Discussion in 'Power Houses' started by Toto, Dec 28, 2018.

  1. Toto

    Toto Staff Member Founder Administrator

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    I thought I'd ask this question as I am currently looking at stocking up on various types of motors, gears and fly wheels for many of the kits that I have accumulated.

    Initially I will be looking to place a couple of bulk orders for the following diesels from the Steve Beattie range of kits.

    Classes, 15, 16, 17, 22, 24, 25, 26, 27 and 29.

    I have been advised that mashima 1833's are suitable but what about the gear sets. Is it single reduction all round or would some suit double reduction and what ratio should they be to ?

    Fly wheels, 23mm or 28mm. I now they should be a 2mm nominal bore.

    I'll be looking to cover my steamers as well so any advice would be welcomed. I appreciate that some set ups may run better than others but maybe at a price premium but I'd be happy to understand both sides of the coin.

    As far as some of the premium kits go, I'd rather fit the best performing combination that I can afford.

    Cheers

    Toto
     
  2. gormo

    gormo Staff Member Administrator

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    G`day Toto,
    I can`t advise regarding motors, although Mashima seems to be a main player.
    Regarding flywheels, I would imagine purely from a physics perspective, that a larger radius flywheel would tend to have more mass, plus due to it`s radius, would probably run on longer than a smaller radius version, once the power is cut to the motor.
    I was thinking about friction motor toys......put a small radius flywheel in them and they would be useless. The bigger the flywheel, the longer they run.
    In a model railway situation, you would find it would give a similar result to a stay alive capacitor......possibly..????
    :cheers::tophat:Gormo
     
  3. York Paul

    York Paul Staff Member Moderator

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    The type of motor and gear arrangement fitted to a particular loco all depends on what you want to achieve, basically the difference is slower speeds on an up and down layout with reasonable or light length trains and / or shunting, or a higher continuous running speed on a looped system with heavy trains running at fast scale speeds. Either way the governing factor is to justify the cost which in top of the range Ron Chaplin gearsets can almost cost as much as a small loco kit. For the record on my Steve Beattie diesel builds I'm using 1833 motors from Taff Vale with single gear 20:1 ratio from Roxey driven off both bogies using Delrin chain systems. My early steamers (and the current as yet unfinished BR Standard 4 are fitted with Mashima 1833 motors, the LNER F5 has a 36:1 gear ratio and the BR 4 and 2-6-2 Class 3 have 26:1 ratio. The Class 3 will be fitted with a Cannon DN22 3 pole motor because I'm selling it on to raise funds for other and better stuff I want. Now my Britannia loco build and my soon to buy Gladiator Duchess will be fitted with JH motors with double reduction gears at 26;1 from MSC. I don't fit flywheels since my small layout has no electrical dead spots and isn't ever on public show.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2018
  4. SMR CHRIS

    SMR CHRIS Staff Member Moderator

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    Most kits have a recommendation on motors and gear box
    As Gormo said
    The Mashima has always been a very good motor
    There were recent concern over supply with the owner retiring but it seems to have been resolved as most places/shops now have stocks again
    Hopefully someone has taken over the co to continue with the supply of motors

    Re fly wheels yes an advantage esp on DC however on DCC the flywheel initially works against itself with the small extra effort required to start turning the extra mass, the Back EMF dose most of the job of a flywheel for you with DCC
    So a flywheel won’t be something you have to consider as a must but a option
    A flywheel also helps with motors that have a cogging effect between poles to smooth out not such a issue with the modern Motors
     
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  5. Toto

    Toto Staff Member Founder Administrator

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    All great advice .... thanks chaps. Whilst there is a definite application of physics, there is also an element of horses for courses by the sound of things. The mashima in most cases seems the sort if common denominator where as Yorkie says, on some of the bigger steamers, a more specific set up could be best if you are willing to pay that bit extra.

    I think the mashima with the 20.1 gear set and Delrin drive for the diesels for sure. Jim Mcgeowans kits seem suited to the mashima as well and some of the others ....... The mom's for instance and the David Andrews kits may deserve individual consideration.

    That's great .... it gives me a way forward with confidence. The jury is still out on the fly wheels as all mine will be DCC operated. It sounds like they could still be of benefit ..... A kind of belt and braces approach but We'll see. Maybe I could try a couple out as a comparison. The Heljan come with them fitted on their big diesels but there again . ..... is that anything yo go by ?

    Another question that's been well worth raising. :tophat:

    Cheers

    Toto
     
  6. Keith M

    Keith M Staff Member Moderator

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    If you have a look on the "High Level Kits" website, Chris Gibbon (a very helpful chap) has a number of different varieties of gearbox, variable ratio's to suit most requirements, and you can print out (He suggests on clear acetate, but it works ok on paper) the 'actual size' so you can work out clearances etc within chassis and body. I've used several of Chis's motor/gearbox combinations, which take Mashima motors (He can supply these), and He has given me advice on a number of occasions. He also does a small number of high quality 0 gauge shunter kits in brass.
    Keith.
     
  7. Toto

    Toto Staff Member Founder Administrator

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    Thanks for that Keith . A new name which I shall investigate.

    Cheers

    Toto
     
  8. Toto

    Toto Staff Member Founder Administrator

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    Just looked Keith .... great for the 4mm modeller. Their Fowler kit looks amazing. Definitely worth a look. Really great site. :thumbs:
     
  9. Rob Pulham

    Rob Pulham Staff Member Administrator Feature Contributor

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    I can't offer much regarding fitting motors/gearboxes to diesels beyond the suggestion that if you are going DCC with them that the flywheels are superfluous - the electronic stay alive taking over that function.

    Also I would recommend the Canon 1833 over the Mashima if you have a choice from all I have read they are a much more powerful/robust motor for their equivalent size.
     
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  10. Keith M

    Keith M Staff Member Moderator

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    Obviously, the torque or 'Grunt' of any motor is the test of it's ability to do the job, but I can't say that I've seen much in the way of torque figures given for small modelling motors, so it's not easy assessing the suitability of motors for a particular loco. Some kit suppliers suggest suitable motor/gearbox combinations, though this may be down to individual kit makers preferences, perhaps designing around whatever motor they have to hand at the time when designing the prototype, or maybe 'best guess' as to what might do the job. Steam loco kit's are often limited by boiler/firebox physical interior size to whatever motor might fit, more difficult and limiting still if it needs to go partly or fully between chassis side frames, and the older kits that used large motors which protruded into the cab thankfully are now mostly confined to the past. Diesel models are normally less limited for space to accommodate a decent sized motor, and you only have to look at some of Heljan's 00 gauge diesels which have a flywheel each side of the centrally mounted motor, driving each bogie by a Cardan shaft, but of course, as Rob mentions, although flywheels are not needed for DCC controlled models, Heljan stuff is "DCC Ready", not "DCC Fitted", so they cover themselves for the "DC Only" modellers by fitting said flywheels for smoothness.
    Then of course, we have the recent modelling 'innovation' of the coreless motor, a nice idea, and much more compact than standard, but it would seem lacking the 'Grunt' of standard types. Whilst it's perhaps essential in a model such as Bachmann's Wickham trolley, tiny and lightweight, it's perhaps not such a good idea in a model like the DJM Class 71 loco, since it's speed and power are limited compared to the Hornby offering of the same loco, which uses a standard motor type and will pull far more coaches at a much higher speed. Yes, it's "Horses for Courses" as is often the case, but then there can also be the consideration of how much space (if any!) is left in the body for those who may wish to fit sound.......lots of things to take into consideration, if not a 'minefield!'
    Keith.
     
  11. Toto

    Toto Staff Member Founder Administrator

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    Fair points raised Keith. Now ..... where's me blast proof jacket. :avatar:
     
  12. Toto

    Toto Staff Member Founder Administrator

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    Some recently purchased 20:1 gears for some of my Steve Beattie kits from Roxey mouldings ........


    Still a few to buy and motors to match.

    cheers

    toto
     
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