Realistic Timetabling

Discussion in 'Running Your Trains' started by Tallpaul70, Mar 3, 2019.

  1. Tallpaul70

    Tallpaul70 Full Member

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    My favoured method of generating a timetable is to start with the WTT (Working Time Table) for either the actual line if modelling a real line/location, or for a similar real location to my dream location, for the actual or a near year to that which I am modelling.

    I then look at the trains that ran and try to understand what the location is all about.
    For instance, is it a rural branch line, a secondary cross country route, a mainline with or without local/suburban trains etc.
    Next I look for any trains that define the line, such as interesting freight flows, or passenger flows.

    My current timetable is around Maidenhead on the WR mainline out of London in 1962.
    The first concession I have had to make is to run two lines instead of the actual 4 because that is all I have room for!
    Interesting trains here include the Parcels train that arrives travelling East from Reading just before 6AM, drops and picks up vans, then runs round and departs West up the branch line to High Wycombe.
    Further interest is that there is no return train from the branch. The various parcels vans (or their empty/full swaps), return to Maidenhead one by one or two on various branch passenger trains through the day.
    Then around 8PM a loco arrives travelling west from Slough and marshals these vans together then departs west to Reading.
    So to run this sequence I need two sets of parcels vans.

    Now to really understand such workings you need a relevant Coach Workings Book and a Locomotive Working Book, as they contain details that are not shown in the WTT.

    If folks would like me to post more details of how I work out such a timetable, I will, when time permits post more thoughts illustrated by my Maidenhead timetable?

    Best regards
    Paul
     
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  2. Ron

    Ron Full Member

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    I'd be interested Paul, at the moment I run a made up timetable and my DCC handset at x7 the time rate. My layout is based on Weybourne station on the North Norfolk railway.
    (I do have access to their timetables)
     
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  3. Tallpaul70

    Tallpaul70 Full Member

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    Hi Ron,

    What follows is a personal preference, at the end of the day, its your railway so you should run it as you like, but I do not favour speeding up.

    The reason I say this is that say a shunting move takes 14 minutes. A 7 times speed up means it has to be completed in 2 minutes! So say the move is engine leave a siding, runs round a string of wagons and shunts them into two sidings. The original 14 minutes allows good time for drawing out of the siding, onto the mainline, off the mainline into the loop, changing points, running onto the wagons, coupling up, backing into the siding 1, uncoupling, drawing forward, change the points ,back into the second siding, uncouple from wagons.
    This is a lot to do in 2 minutes!
    I favour running the movements in real time, but reduce the interval between movements. This needs to be done carefully so that all the movements do not rush one after the other!
    I am not familiar with the North Norfolk area, but if Weybourne has any terminating or starting trains, I would try to get access to the Carriage working and Loco working books for the details they may contain. Stock may have been stored there, or bought in as empty stock. Unfortunately WTTS do not always show all the empty stock and locomotive movements.

    I will try to continue my timetable development saga with the example of my Maidenhead table later tomorrow.

    Best regards
    Paul
     
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  4. Ron

    Ron Full Member

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    Thanks Paul, I take your point on time-speeding. I don't do much shunting apart from Loco changes at the station which is a through station but has Loco and goods facilities.
    I watch this thread with interest, thhanks again.

    Ron
     
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  5. Tallpaul70

    Tallpaul70 Full Member

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    Hi Ron,
    I agree, I am not a great shunter, it is too easy to shunt without purpose, when the real railway shunts, it has a purpose!
    Mainly my shunting is detaching/ attaching wagons from/to a train and then placing them in the right siding. Occasionally I move the string of vans in the goods shed line along to be unloaded/loaded.

    I looked up Weybourne in my pre grouping maps as I was not sure of its location. It sounds a good place to model as the M&GN was a great railway (I am a fan of the S&DJ, but have never got to model it). You also have the chance to include the modern preserved North Norfolk Railway!

    Getting back to timetabling:-
    The first decision is which season is the timetable to be in?. This may already be set by factors such as the trees on the layout are in full leaf, so winter is out! However in some areas winter timetables have less trains than the summer ones, so if the relevant WTTs are available, winter may be a good stating point for a first timetabling attempt.

    The second decision is which day of the week to timetable. I favour weekdays, but once I am happy with the weekday timetable, I will do a Saturday timetable, which may require more passenger trains and less suburban and goods trains but is a good excuse to run your favourite out of area train as an excursion, or run steam in what is a diesel era layout! Not something you need worry much about with the North Norfolk Railway!

    I then divide the day into three 8 hour periods. Maybe 04.00-12.00, 12.00 - 20.00, and 20.00 - 04.00 (morning afternoon and night). I then look to timetable a running session for the morning, and one for the afternoon, each lasting about 2 hours. I usually forget the night shift as this needs extra goods trains, and more specialised passenger rated stock such as sleeping cars and Postal vans. I do have these, but to use them I have to take other stock off and load this stock on. Added to which I think you need plenty of lights around the layout and on the locomotives and stock, so you can turn the main lights off and run in the dark. Effective, but altogether too much hassle except for an occasional change!
    Why two hours? It is just a running session that suits me. Everyone should choose a length of session that suits them!

    However, you have to be sure before writing up the timetable that your chosen start and end times for the periods do not coincide with a busy period in the timetable, so often I have to make the session slightly shorter or longer than 2 hours.
    Make sure your most complicated move is not just after you start a session. or just before you end it as those are the times mistakes are made.

    So how do I fit 8 hours timetable into two real hours?
    I save time by running up and down trains so they pass through the scenic area at the same time, rather than perhaps 20 minutes apart.
    I reduce the time interval between trains, but always remember that while you can have an express catching up a slower goods, once an express passes , it must be a while before a slower train can come by, unless you are modelling a location just past where 4 tracks or loops end and join into the main line.
    Unless you have a very large area for your layout, or the storage tracks of it, you will end up as I do running the same train as a number of different trains in the timetable. One of the skills is deciding how many times a given train can circuit the layout in a given timetable. This is particularly relevant with passenger trains. I save repetition with goods trains by dropping off and attaching wagons within the scenic area, so their appearance is altered.

    If your layout allows, another dodge is to do what the real railway does and run your trains in both directions. Here I am talking about round and round layouts, end to end layouts have to do this anyway. This does require strategically placed crossovers, and locomotive sidings so that a clockwise circuiting train can be reversed by attaching a fresh loco to the other end of the train, and then crossing from down line to up and circuit anti clockwise. Anyone operating a Dog Bone layout can, of course do this more easily!

    Do not worry if your first attempt fails because it takes too long to run, or is too short. Just look at the movements and maybe take a train out, or add one in. Also you can always adjust a shunting period. Although I have written up a number of these timetables, I usually end up making some sort of adjustment. What I do is to note down the trains I have decided to leave out as I go along and then if I am short at the end I have a list from which to add another one or two in.

    So here I have dealt with the basics of the timetabling, when I get an opportunity I will post the detail of setting up the timetable for my Nearly Maidenhead Layout.

    Hope this is of interest?

    Best regards
    Paul
     
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  6. Ron

    Ron Full Member

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    This the present NNR timetable, just for interest.
    Ron
     

    Attached Files:

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  7. Tallpaul70

    Tallpaul70 Full Member

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    Thanks Ron,
    I guess the layout of Weybourne is a lot less now than in the heyday of the M&GN?
    Cheers
    Paul
     
  8. Ron

    Ron Full Member

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    IMG_0261.JPG

    IMG_0265.JPG No on the contrary, the main loco shed and engineering for the NNR is based at Weybourne, Sheringham and Holt are merely turnaround points although Sheringham is a bigger station.
     
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  9. Tallpaul70

    Tallpaul70 Full Member

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    So If you model modern day Weybourne you have to add the LE workings to the timetables you sent me, from there into and from Sheringham?
    Sounds good!
     
  10. Ron

    Ron Full Member

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    LE ?? Also runs to Holt in the other direction..
     
  11. Tallpaul70

    Tallpaul70 Full Member

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    Ron,
    I assumed that a steam engines leave the shed at Weybourne and runs light to Sheringham to start duty on the first steam departure say the 10.30 departure? Or are the carriages stabled at Weybourne as well, so that the engine also brings them in empty?

    Cheers
    Paul
     
  12. Ron

    Ron Full Member

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    Carriages stabled at Sheringham yes, loco's at Weybourne that's exactly how the day starts! :thumbup::thumbup:
     
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  13. SBt

    SBt Full Member

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    Could there be such a thing as Scale Time?
     
  14. Ron

    Ron Full Member

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    Most DCC handsets have a system time facility, I use a X7 at the moment although I may change this and go with the NNR timetable..

    Ron
     
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  15. Tallpaul70

    Tallpaul70 Full Member

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    Hi Ron, and others who have watched this thread,

    Sorry I've not posted anything on this thread for a while, been busy getting to grips with DCC including sound. Then I got bogged down trying to upload a video I made of my first sound loco, which is too big for forums to accept!

    I hope to pick this subject up and move it along in the next few days.

    Best regards
    Paul
     
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  16. Tallpaul70

    Tallpaul70 Full Member

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    Here at long last, is something more on timetabling:-
    However, after writing this posting, I tried to upload the files, but the system will not play ball because they have .xlsx file extensions!!
    If any one knows the solution to this, such as what format to resave spreadsheets in to be accepted by the system, please advise!
    Many thanks

    Attached and below is the first stage of timetabling my Thames Valley Layout. This is the branch which is based on the timetable of the Maidenhead to High Wycombe line.

    If you could look at the first attachment you would realise that the problem with this timetable as it stands is that there are two more down trains than there are up trains, which is not good for a single ended model branch! There were also a few other mistakes which I must correct.

    So the second attachment, if you could see it comprises a revised version plus a version for the model showing trains running between the high level terminus and the baseboard level branch fiddle yard.
    I have allowed a notional 3 minutes between the high level Terminus yard and the junction and also three minutes between the junction and the baseboard branch fiddle yard. The exception is that I have allowed 5 minutes for the freight trains between the Terminus yard and the junction.

    The two down trains that did not return along the branch, in fact got back to London via the GW&GC line. So I have routed these trains back along the branch removing the inbalance between down and up.

    There is also a problem , less apparent, with the freight trains whereby there is an evening down train that goes to Oxley sidings (Wolverhampton), but no return train and an up evening freight from Aylesbury that has no down train. Again these trains did exist, but were routed by the GW&GC.

    So I have rerouted these trains via the branch.

    An alternative would be to take out the trains that had no balance working along the branch, and once I check out what will be held in each of the sidings in the yards, I may have to do this.

    One job remaining on this timetable is to note the trains by which the various vans off the morning Reading to Princes Risborough parcels made their way back to Maidenhead ready for the evening maidenhead to Reading parcels.

    So next I will be starting on the main line timetable.

    Initially I will place the key trains.
    Given that the centrepiece of the layout is the Thames Valley Yard, these will be the trains that used it, namely the stopping freights, the shunting engines, and signature trains such as the morning Reading-Princes Risborough parcels, the morning Oxford-Slough Fish, and the evening Maidenhead to Reading parcels.

    I will also need to work in the London bound and returning branch workings to ensure that they cross to and from the baseboard level branch fiddle yard without conflicting with any of the above trains.

    The stopping freight trains in each direction will be represented by one train. It will look different each time it comes round because on each visit to Thames Valley Yard, it will drop off and pick up wagons.

    Another freight of markedly different composition will represent the through non stop freights.

    Next I will position the DMUs, steam commuter trains and the long distance trains in the gaps. Not all actual trains will run because I am portraying 4 tracks in 2, so something has to give!

    But this is a bit meaningless to you all if I cannot load the attachments!!
    Grrrrr!!
    Wish me luck!

    Best regards
    Paul
     
  17. Timbersurf

    Timbersurf

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    The forum will only accept pictures, text and pdf files. However, it will also accept .ZIP files. As files in a zip folder can contain virus's, many would not open it, but if you upload on the forum via a Zip, the onus is on us, as to if we trust you! :giggle:
    There are freebie programs available to download like 7-zip.
     
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  18. Andy_Sollis

    Andy_Sollis Staff Member Moderator

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    Best way for video is to upload it to YouTube and then link/embed it in you post using the film real icon above.
     
  19. Tallpaul70

    Tallpaul70 Full Member

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    Thanks Andy,
    did only find best way with Videos recently, but in this instance I was trying to upload a Timetable spreadsheet!
    Cheers
    Paul
     
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  20. Peter K

    Peter K Full Member

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    No, because:

    Speed = Distance/Time.

    Thus, at speed to be 1/xx th... of real life, then distance OR time must be shortened. Therefore, 1/x speed = (1/x distance) / 1:1 Time. If not, the balance of things does not work. So, we have a model loco going at say 1m/s instead of 75m/s (a high-speed train of sorts). A 500-metre run takes 500 seconds, which equates to approximately 8 minutes.

    500 x the nominal 1:75 scale used for the example = 37.5km
    37.5km, travelled in real life at average speed 75 m/s (270km/h) = 8.33 minutes of journey time.

    Therefore, it is not possible to scale time. Time scaling seems like a good idea on larger multi-station layouts as it simulates the journey time between stations, but in station areas, which are often not as compressed as the inter-station areas (e.g. the Gainsborough railway's KX model is not as compressed as the distance between KX and Hitchin), the time cannot scale much or else it would be impossible to run properly. Imagine if the 1 minute used to run round a train quickly was the equivalent of 1 hour+.
     
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