Another newby

Discussion in 'New members welcome lounge' started by Neil, Nov 24, 2019.

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  1. Neil

    Neil Full Member

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    Hi, Firstly I should like to thank you all for accepting my application for membership.

    It seems that its quite common for people to return to this hobby after a good few years away, and that is what I'm about to do. The last layout that I owned comprised several "Sets" purchased for my two sons (Who sadly never saw the attraction) they were all DC based due to their age.
    I would now like to rekindle my interest in the hobby and would like to enter the field of DCC, I would eventually like to also enter the computer control arena (I derive a lot of pleasure from automating things).
    So I have the first obstacle to over come which is selecting a suitable DCC control system that will be able to fully control the layout (Locomotives, Turnouts and block control, specifically , but also lighting and effects)
    A good friend of mine has recently set up using NCE Powercab range, Which I like the look of however I am considering using JMRI as a control platform but from the limited research I have done so far it seems that there are issues with these to systems working together.
    So I guess this is the first question I should like to raise within the group hoping to benefit from your considerable experience, any guidance on suitable controllers and software would be much appreciated.

    Neil
     
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  2. Toto

    Toto I'm best ignored Staff Member Founder Administrator

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    I'm sure there will be quite some feedback Neil as there are a few systems being used on here. The NCE is a strong contender. I use it personally and I know many others do with no real complaints.

    It's also co patible with JMRI which Paul_l is a great ambassador of. I'm sure he'll give you the low down on that when he catches up with the thread.

    Cheers for now

    Toto
     
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  3. paul_l

    paul_l Staff Member Administrator

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    Hi Neil

    The NCE systems are really easy to use, with well written instructions to get you started within 30 min of unpacking.

    I use the PowerCab, Toto has the NCE PowerHouse (he would :whatever:). Seemingly there are other DCC systems available, but if you pick the best why bother looking at the rest (boy do I feel a flame war about to erupt).

    A few questions to ask yourself

    How many loco's do you intend to have a) on the layout & b) in motion ?
    Newer loco's will consume approx 0.1A while stationary, and approx 0.3 while in motion (Heljan OO gauge locos it's safe to double those figures) Sound fitted locos add another 0.1A to the consumption figures. The power cab on its own can only supply 1.5A. This can be increased by adding an NCE SB05 Smart Booster, which acts both as a command station and 5A power booster.
    On my OO gauge layout - Victoria Road, I often had 8 loco's on the layout with only 2 ever being motion at a time. The PowerCab coped, the layout running without issue at four different exhibitions. My backup plan is to use a MERG Power booster (configurable as either a 5A or 10A unit).
    I have not had to build the kit up yet as for my O gauge layout - Another Bridge, I have borrowed Toto's PowerHouse system (well he did volunteer my layout for the exhibitions)

    How many old locomotives (using open framed motors like the X04) ?
    Open fame motors can frequently consume over 1A, and I would suggest the DCC decoder for these loco's is the TCS T1

    Do you want to buy the automation units ready made, or are you willing to make them yourself (or assemble electronic kits) ?
    Now the fun stuff - To interface with JMRI you will need the NCE USB interface (the v7 version preferrably).
    To control the points on Viccy Road I originally used MERG Pulsed accessory decoders (kit 52), for use with solenoid poit motors, the kit has a built in Capicitor Discharge Unit, and are priced at £14.32 and will operate 4 seperate outputs (I have connected a pair of seep point motors to a single output without issue). When I decided to replace the seep point motors with servo's, I built a circuit using an arduino nano, to provide the outputs, and used the output to drive a MERG servo4 unit (yes you've guessed it, it can control 4 servo's).
    All these accessory devices have an individual address, which you select on the handset and toggle to the state you want it to be.
    Using the USB interface, and setting up JMRI on your PC, you can start control the layout from the PC.

    JMRI come with several modules
    DecoderPro - essential for anyone, it allows you to easily manage and backup your decoder setting. A life saver if a decoder looses its settings - just put the loco back on the programming track, and reload the settings.
    PanelPro - The layout automation module
    DispatcherPro - A system for Dispatching, grouping your Roster and Throttles
    OperationsPro - Build Trains from your Roster and print Train Manifests that detail the work your train crews will perform
    SoundPro - A set of tools for using Audio with JMRI

    If you create your layouts trackplan in AnyRail, you can then import it into PanelPro. The next stage is to identify each point, and its accessory decoder, once you have completed this you can start and create routes.

    PowerCab (v1.65) / SB05 limitations - only supports 3 controllers + 3 accessory devices (USB interface, Auxilary Input Unit AIU & Mini Panel)

    When looking at automating Viccy Road, the number of inputs available on AIU was prohibative, so I looked for an alternative, and MERG units came to the rescue again, with thier selection of input and output units, however, I would need to install a seperate control bus (CanBus) and another computer usb interface, this time a MERG USB/CanBus, with JMRI providing the glue between the two systems. Unfortunately Viccy Road has been mothballed, but as redundancy / forced retirement looms evercloser, the dust cloths may well get removed and a fresh look at the whole system.

    Have a look at the MERG site https://www.merg.org.uk/
    There is some very useful information.

    Any questions - just ask

    Paul
     
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  4. Toto

    Toto I'm best ignored Staff Member Founder Administrator

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    Ohhhhh geeshhhhh ....... :facepalm: what have I unleashed :avatar:
     
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  5. MalcT

    MalcT Full Member

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    :avatar::avatar:
     
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  6. Ron

    Ron Full Member

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    Blimy, after reading all that I think I'll go back into hiding!!:facepalm:
     
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  7. ianvolvo46

    ianvolvo46 Staff Member Moderator

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    He forgit to mention hair of bat and breath of newt ... :scratchchin:

    Ian vt
     
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  8. York Paul

    York Paul Staff Member Moderator

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    Thank goodness I know exactly nowt about DCC and things like that .
     
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  9. Neil

    Neil Full Member

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    Hi Paul, Many thanks for your quick and detailed response, I thought I had a lot to research before, now I feel I really have a lot to consider. There is one issue that is bothering me from what I read on the JMRI pages, I plan to use the cobalt digital turnout motors which include a feed back feature but from the reading it seem that JMRI cant take advantage of this when using NCE and I would like to use this feature. Have I interpreted this correctly and is there a way to overcome this.
    FYI I have just made a start at a layout plan using SCARM, I anticipate this will take some time as I don't get a lot of time to devote to it, I'm sure there will be many more issue to get my head around as the plan starts to come together, so I guess many more questions too.
    Many thanks again.
    Neil
     
  10. ianvolvo46

    ianvolvo46 Staff Member Moderator

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    images.png

    Ian vt :facepalm:
     
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  11. Andy_Sollis

    Andy_Sollis Staff Member Moderator

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    Neil, if you like the JMRI computer stuff , then why not look at a Sprog https://www.sprog-dcc.co.uk/ which will program your decoders from Decoder pro, allow you to drive them from the throttle and control
    Points etc from panel pro. (The bits between the sprog and point motors is separate and extra, but any will do.)
    And this is all for £50. It won’t break the bank to start up, and it’s still got its programming and test facilities if you move on to a bigger and better controller.

    if your computer you run intending to work from is on WiFi, you can then also control the locos and points from WiThrottle on your phone or iPad (there is another one by a different name if your Android) so cordless handsets.
    Good luck !
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
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  12. Neil

    Neil Full Member

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    Hi Andy many thanks will look in to this when I get chance
    Neil
     
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  13. paul_l

    paul_l Staff Member Administrator

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    Hi Neil

    Couple of points (don't think the pun was intended)

    Loco's and accessory decoders all receive thier messages via the Track Bus - this is a broadcast only bus, that is messages are sent from the command station to the decoders whom listen to the bus and wait for any messages for thier decoder address. There is no response/feedback from the decoders to the command station (it's the same for all DCC compliant systems, and is the reason you can mix and match decoders).

    On the NCE system to get feed back from point motors, block dectectors, signals etc., etc. You need to use an AIU (Auxillary Input Unit). These connect to the Cab Bus and provide 14 inputs per unit, so if you wanted to use an input for each end of a points travel you would need 2 inputs per point or 7 points per unit. Realistically you'd get away with 1 sensor per point (the spare contact on a cobalt) giving 14 points per unit. This is where we have the biggest limitation of the PowerCab & SB5 entry level systems. The PowerCab and SB5 (essentially a PowerCab without the key pad but with a 5A power supply) can only support 3 Cab bus devices - 3 Throttles and 3 utilitiy devices (chipset version +1.65, version 1.28 only supports 3 cab bus devices in total). In theory you could have 3 AIU's giving 42 inputs, however as you want to use JMRI, you will need the USB interface, limiting you to 2 x AIU or 28 inputs.

    JMRI can be your salvation here, JMRI will support multiple computer interfaces, so in my case I have both the PowerCab + Additional Throttles and AIUs + USB interface, and the MERG USB interface connected to MERG I/O units. Any Inputs from either the NCE system or MERG system are fed into JMRI, the appropriate decisions are made by JMRI and the outputs sent to either system. e.g. Any Accy decoders connected to the track bus, will be sent instructions from JMRI via the NCE system.
    Takes a bit of configuring, but will work.
    The alternative is to update to the Powerhouse system where you can have upto 63 Cab bus devices - for me the price was too high, so I had to find an alternative. I didn't want to loose the NCE controller as it just works so well, and is so intuitive, my reasoning is as JMRI is doing the grunt behind the scenes and I get to play trains with the controller (sorry drive he trains in a prototypical manner :whatever:).

    I know you have started on the layout, but may I suggest a small test plank, with a couple of points (bit like an Inglenook layout - in OO that could be less than 4ft) and create sections, and add point motors and accy decoders, then use this to learn on. It's far easier to turnover to check / redo wiring etc than on the layout.

    Paul
     
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  14. Neil

    Neil Full Member

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    Hi All, I decided to go down the NCE powercab route and purchased the USB interface to go along with it and downloaded JMRI, all well so far.
    The next thing I wanted to try, in preparation for computer and signal control, was block detection. I decided to choose the Digitrax BDL168 for this purpose and in order for the computer to communicate with it I purchased the RRcirkits Loconet to usb interface, I connected everything up and configured ports etc. and then the problems began.
    Being unable to establish a connection between the RRcirkits interface and the BDL168 via loconet, I did some reading and discovered that the Loconet will not operate unless correctly terminated. This lead on to building a 15mA constant current injector and an additional 12v regulated supply.
    Having installed this I have the following situation:- JMRI will now send traffic out (can be seen in loconet monitor) but the BDL does not either receive it or respond to it (I have configured the BDL168 via push buttons to be set for Direct home wiring), which apparently sets op sws 11 & 12 to "thrown" configuring the BDL to master and terminator.
    However after this I have the following situation - Both green lights "On" on the Interface unit and a flickering Red light when JMRI is sending traffic, The green led on the BDL flashes off every two seconds but the red led never flashes, any and all help appreciated - Neil
     
  15. paul_l

    paul_l Staff Member Administrator

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    Hi Neil

    Sorry, I'm not going to be much help to you here, I have no experience of working with loconet.

    Can JMRI see the BDL168 via the RRcirkits interface ?

    Don't know if this will help JMRI & BDL168
    I assume you may have already read this but you never know

    Paul
     
  16. Neil

    Neil Full Member

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    Hi Paul,

    Many thanks for your reply, I've read a lot of stuff but still to no avail, how do I start a new general post - so as to ask for help more widespread ?
     
  17. Neil

    Neil Full Member

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  18. Neil

    Neil Full Member

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    Hi All, I decided to go down the NCE powercab route and purchased the USB interface to go along with it and downloaded JMRI, all well so far.
    The next thing I wanted to try, in preparation for computer and signal control, was block detection. I decided to choose the Digitrax BDL168 for this purpose and in order for the computer to communicate with it I purchased the RRcirkits Loconet to usb interface, I connected everything up and configured ports etc. and then the problems began.
    Being unable to establish a connection between the RRcirkits interface and the BDL168 via loconet, I did some reading and discovered that the Loconet will not operate unless correctly terminated. This lead on to building a 15mA constant current injector and an additional 12v regulated supply.
    Having installed this I have the following situation:- JMRI will now send traffic out (can be seen in loconet monitor) but the BDL does not either receive it or respond to it (I have configured the BDL168 via push buttons to be set for Direct home wiring), which apparently sets op sws 11 & 12 to "thrown" configuring the BDL to master and terminator.
    However after this I have the following situation - Both green lights "On" on the Interface unit and a flickering Red light when JMRI is sending traffic, The green led on the BDL flashes off every two seconds but the red led never flashes, any and all help appreciated - Neil
     

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