DC or DCC this is not the question.

Discussion in 'DCC Control' started by paul_l, Mar 21, 2021.

  1. Walkingthedog

    Walkingthedog Full Member

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    Guess it depends if you want to stare at a screen or a set of knobs. I spent far too much of my working life staring at screens so the nearest my railway will get to one is when I am on here.
     
  2. Keith M

    Keith M Staff Member Moderator

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    If it's anything like the Zero 1 system then it'll be a kind of 'Halfway house' I'd think. Although that was Hornby's attempt at a 'sort-of dcc' it wasn't compatible or compliant with the NMRA standards as far as I know, and by the sound of it, this will be neither one thing or the other, one of a kind and perhaps not compatible with anything except Hornby's own stuff.
    If it's only a 'wireless DC controller' then personally I can't see much of an advantage except the operator being 'mobile', you will still have to only run one loco at a time, and how are you going to switch section isolation (or points) remotely without various 'Add-on's' to the basic unit? That might be only £30, but if you then have to buy other units to isolate/switch points etc, the cost will soon add up.
    It's always been said that you should not buy 'electronics' made by (or for) the 'Train set' manufacturers under their brand name, good that they may be at making 'trains', not so hot at more specialised stuff, Hornby's 'own brand' decoders being a case in point.....not particularly cheap, often limited in function and not necessarily reliable. Their sound decoders can only play 2 different sounds simultaneously, yes, they're only around £45-ish compared to Zimo/ESU at £100, but you get what you pay for, cheap and cheerful.
    My advice to anyone contemplating this purchase would be to wait and see wether the end result actually offers any functional advantages.
    Keith.
     
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  3. Walkingthedog

    Walkingthedog Full Member

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    It’s basically an 8 track DC controller that you can program.
     
  4. paul_l

    paul_l Staff Member Administrator

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    Like many I upgraded to O gauge roughly 3 years ago (ish), I was fortunate enough for exhibitions to be able to borrow Toto's 5A NCE powerhouse system, to avoid overloading my PowerCab system.

    For me the main difference for DCC requirement between OO & O was the possible higher power consumption.
    Possible ? - I here you ask, well ...... my 1st loco was a Dapol Terrier, basically an oversize OO loco, with a 21pin decoder fitted. Well within the 1.5A the Powercab can cope with, however at an exhibition I could have upto 8 loco's on the layout, and not all RTR examples, and the real danger of one of Toto's Heljans making an appearance.

    My upgrade path for my PowerCab has been pondered over for some time.
    The two limitations for me of the PowerCab were it only being able to support 3 cabs and 3 I/O devices (USB interface, MiniPanel or AIO - input device) and the 1.5A total current supply. The constraint of the PowerCab being tethered wasn't really an issue for Victoria Road, as it was tethered at the fiddle yard, and additional access points were on each board and I had a Cab06 Engineers Cab.

    The obvious upgrade would have been to get a NCE 5A SmartBooster, but as this essentially a PowerCab in a box with a 5A power supply, it still had the limitation of the 3 cabs and 3 I/O devices. I wanted additional I/O to allow for train detection and some form of automation on Viccy Road, strangely enough, for O gauge the SB5 would have been enough (for now).

    I did wonder about changing systems, and do have all the bits to build a MERG system, but NCE is just so user friendly, I eventually picked up a 5A Powerhouse system from ebay, not the cheapest of prices but one I was happy enough to pay. If I had to buy new, then I would have gone down the separate's route and bought a CS02 Command station plus 5A Booster, or a PowerPro (the combined CS02 + 5A booster in the one box as supplied in the 5A Powerhouse systems), and avoided the cost of the Power Pro hammerhead, as I already have the PowerCab, which when plugged in to a Powerhouse system works as a PowerPro handset.

    A general comment from me regarding NCE, is every NCE owner should have a PowerCab, as it's an all in one system, if you need to do any testing, reprogramming etc, then just have a small test rig away from the layout that you can use as a programming track completely independant of the main layout.

    Less chance of mistakes.

    Paul
     
  5. Dr Tony

    Dr Tony Full Member

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    Thanks Paul for your very well written piece of explanation, especially all the names of the devices. Up until now I have only had simple layouts, with only "one engine in steam" so to speak. So DC control has not been a disadvantage for me. However, I am planning my next layout (still have to finish another 2, but have to keep the creative juices flowing) and while i can make it work fairly well (in my head) with just 3 distinct sections, DCC would make the wiring much simpler and operation too, the whole driving the loco and not the track thing.
    Thank you for the screenshots from JMRI, i have heard people talk about it, but until i have actually seen it presented like that, it was just an idea, no more. This looks so much more preferable to programming everything through the handset. Those handsets look like they come straight out of the 90s, with their simple 2-line alpha-numeric display. I am a surveyor and we occasionally have to work with the older equipment that uses that, it's what we all used to use, but it is rather painful now, to go back to something like that.
    The PC interface looks a lot better for dealing with issues. My work involves fancy equipment that sometimes doesn't like "talking" to each other. Sometimes this can be painful to resolve, to hear of this with people with DCC and trying to solve it through the tiny handset has no appeal, I do enough of that in my work life to not want to bring that to my hobby.
    Sound isn't an issue for me, jamming a mobile phone speaker into a loco just doesn't cut it in my mind, can't fit a 12" woofer in a loco really. Being at exhibitions that have sound locos is an exercise in frustration for me, most are simply drowned out by the cacophony of other noises in the place, and the ones that do get through, get really grating after 8 hours...
    Have enough recent locos that were designed with DCC in mind now, some of the early flywheel locos simply don't have enough room for their basic wiring, let alone a decoder. Will keep those older ones for the DC layouts I think.
    So thanks once again Paul, this gets put into my head as another part of the new layout, that might just happen!
    Cheers
    Tony
     
  6. paul_l

    paul_l Staff Member Administrator

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    Hi Tony

    Glad it's been of some help, any other area's you'd like explored further just ask, there are plenty of us with opinions, and some of us may even be right :avatar:.

    In a recent conversation I had with York Paul (also at the start of his DCC journey for his next layout), I did make the point that if you replace your existing DC controller with a DCC controller (i.e. just swap the two output wires), and switch all sections on then your current layout can try DCC. There is a proviso, a DC layout is normally wired to cope with 1 to 2 A max, whereas most DCC layouts need to be wired to cope with 5 to 10 A. If the wiring isn't capable of handling the current, then when you get a short, the cabling is acting as a resistor, the Booster can provide the full current, but the wiring may prevent the short circuit protection from tripping, causing it or the weakest point to heat up and eventually melt.
    A good check is to use a cointo short out the track, if the controller doesn't trip immediately, then you need to upgrade the wiring.
    As a rough guide for Track bus wires I use 1.5mm square solid or stranded mains cable (max rated at 13A - mains lighting) or 2.5mm square solid or stranded mains cable (max rated at 18A - mains appliances). The 1.5mm is adequate but for O gauge I will probably standardise on the 2.5mm.

    May be worth having a look at the following link to the NCE web site for the PowerCab documentation

    It's worth having a read of the first 5 pages (Page 1 is the cover), by the end of these you will have connected up your system, changed the address of two loco's and have them running on the same piece of track. It has screen shots of the display and the instructions on how to do it. From opening the box to running took less than 30min, I did have a dog helping me :avatar:.
    It will give you an idea of the interface, the PowerCab & PowerPro handsets both use the same interface. The smaller engineering cabs (Cab 04, 05 & 06) are cut down and intentionally do not have the same programming access.

    I'm sure Keith and Jim will know the best place to get similar instructions for the Lenz systems, and anyone else please feel free to chip in with references for thier systems.

    Paul
     
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  7. Chris M

    Chris M If 2 wrongs don't make it right ... try 3 Full Member

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    I definitely agree about DCC sound ... it can drive you nuts. :facepalm: It seems that sound aficionado's forget that when viewing a locomotive on a layout we are (scale-wise) a long way from the model. In real life the sound level we hear is greatly reduced by distance.

    I understand that DCC sound is expensive and, having invested in it, you want to show it off. BUT ... after playing with it TURN IT DOWN (way down). I have to do this on many YouTube videos.

    This is also applicable to DC as some limited sound is now possible with some models but I am not sure if you can control the volume with DC?

    Chris
     
  8. paul blythe

    paul blythe Full Member

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    In some ways that is ideal for me. We have a pre-existing large layout in my fathers loft which consists of a 4 track mainline with loads of sidings. its powered by 3 gaugemaster analogue controllers which are now starting to show theyre age. We have over 100 locos and at my fathers age he doesn't want to be starting out again and retrofitting them all with decoders and thats before we get to the cost. The points are all controlled using the old stud and probe method on a trackplan so we wouldnt need to buy the add on modules. hes also pretty nifty with a smart phone. These could be a cost effective replacement and the added ability to programme acceleration, deceleration etc will be a bonus
     
  9. paul_l

    paul_l Staff Member Administrator

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    Hi Paul

    Do you have a link to the system, I'd be interested to look at it, as it's always good to see what is available, and I do have some loco's I'd be wary of converting (just yet :whatever:)

    Paul
     
  10. paul blythe

    paul blythe Full Member

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    https://uk.hornby.com/catalogue/tra...J-URKmqDIEtIc3t-GuCrH0gnkoRkfsi809-X-Y66BO_gA

    Here is the page on Hornbys website. The key for me will be how many amps it its rated for which currently is not shown on the website. If its powerful enough i may get one for an o gauge rolling road project im thinking about. I reckon it will be ideal as a retrofit to my dads layout
     
  11. paul_l

    paul_l Staff Member Administrator

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    Thanks Paul, I'll give it the once over.

    I found this video earlier today looking for something else, just a taster for JMRI, this time on a MAC and using the Arduino based "DCC++" DCC system



    Personally I would use DecoderPro rather than PanelPro for the decoder programming and roster management, but the steps are the same - PanelPro is using DecoderPro.

    Colin_W has done a great introduction to DCC++, and for a DCC system under £20 (not including Loco or accessory decoders) is not bad at all.

    Paul
     
  12. paul_l

    paul_l Staff Member Administrator

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    Paul, the unit looks very interesting, and I have submitted a request for more info regarding current output.

    How do you fancy growing your own so to say.
    Using the DCC++ system from Colin_W's post above, and four loco decoders (1 per track, so you could have more). The cheaper loco decoders Laisdcc, Hornby, Bachmann etc will supply between 1 & 1.5A each, just check the output on the decoder specs. Each decoder is connected to the track rather than the loco motor.
    You could use the DCC Concepts Budda O gauge decoders which can provide upto 5A to the motor - or in our case the track.
    Your power supply will need to be able to power all four decoders, so a 4A to 6A 12V power brick would do. It would need a PC to setup and run the JMRI to get the tablet / phone control - old phones are great as you just use the wifi. I have an old BT router that is for Model Railway use only, with no internet connection, and is used at home or comes with me to exhibitions. Secure the wifi down by using MAC address authentication so only the devices you approve can gain access. The PC can be replaced by a Raspberry Pi, so a very customisable and not too expensive system could be built, and more importantly, if it goes wrong you know how to fix it.

    upload_2021-3-23_11-34-7.png

    Hopefully this will try and explain it

    Paul
     
  13. paul blythe

    paul blythe Full Member

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    thats an excellent idea im not sure why doing something like that has never occured to me
     
  14. David Mitchell-Todd

    David Mitchell-Todd Full Member

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    I have just tried this, it is excellent!
     
  15. Walkingthedog

    Walkingthedog Full Member

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    I thought so. I just did it for a joke. I said to she who must be obeyed SWMBO I’ll see if Alexa will do train noises and we can pretend we are on a station, and low and behold it did.
     
  16. paul_l

    paul_l Staff Member Administrator

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    :avatar: finally a use for it, now I just have to find a power cable as the cat's killed Alexa - up till now I hadn't missed it :avatar:

    Paul
     
  17. paul blythe

    paul blythe Full Member

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    we discovered that as well as playing music Alexa is good for animal noises and has a fart mode (i kid you not)
     
  18. Walkingthedog

    Walkingthedog Full Member

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    It does a myriad of things, many useless. The grand kids love the animal noises.
     
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  19. Jim Freight

    Jim Freight Full Member

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    Sounds too good to be true at only £30, I'd hold back until you know the full story, don't forget the 'only two wires' hype over DCC.

    Jim :scratchchin:
     
  20. Jim Freight

    Jim Freight Full Member

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    :facepalm::avatar:
     

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