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Best Practice for etched riveting

Discussion in 'Hints & Tips' started by Mossy, Mar 8, 2021.

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  1. Mar 8, 2021 #1
    Mossy

    Mossy A classic grump Yorkshire man Full Member

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    Ok, my best is frankly c...p. I have a simple drop riveter and have tried using it with a softwood block, plywood and ply/foam core with both unannealed and annealed brass all of which simply bend the brass. The best results I have had is using a steel plate, but even then the rivets look more like cow pats.

    So what am I doing wrong - suggestions please
     
  2. Mar 8, 2021 #2
    paul_l

    paul_l Staff Member Administrator

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    Hi Mossy

    I think I used cardboard / greyboard or a self healing mat - thats whats normally lying around. Try some thin card between your brass and steel plate.
    Next measure up the drop height you are using. I have a pair of nuts at the top end to set the drop height.

    This will vary from one drop riveter to the next, but my drop height is 138mm, the length of the steel drop weight is 33mm and the diameter is 16mm.

    I insert the point into the half etch hole, hold the riveter as verticle as I can and just let the drop weight fall.

    Check the point shape, if it punctures the surface before a rivet form, blunten the end a little.

    Hope that helps

    Paul
     
  3. Mar 8, 2021 #3
    Keith M

    Keith M Staff Member Moderator

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    I too only have a simple drop riveter since I can't justify the cost of a 'pro' rivetting tool for the amount of kits I'm likely to build. I do my rivetting on a cutting mat as this has some 'give' in it though I have tried hardwood, softwood, ply etc, I find using a cutting mat gives satisfactory results.
    Keith.
     
  4. Mar 8, 2021 #4
    Mossy

    Mossy A classic grump Yorkshire man Full Member

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    Hi Paul,

    Double nuts yes, drop weight 33mm, drop height adjustable up to 170mm (measured from top of the drop weight).
    Point blunted. Only thing I have tried is self healing mat - not sure where it is but will give it a try.

    Thanks for the help
     
  5. Mar 8, 2021 #5
    Keith M

    Keith M Staff Member Moderator

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    Sounds like you have the London Road drop rivetter Mossy, Paul and myself definitely do as we both bought one at the same York exhibition.
    Keith.
     
  6. Mar 8, 2021 #6
    Rob Pulham

    Rob Pulham Happily making models Staff Member Administrator Feature Contributor

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    Try dropping them onto a sheet of lead to help retain the rivet shape.

    As a way of tidying up rivets once rivetted I have recently invested in set of these after seeing that a builder on Western Thunder uses them to reset the metal distorted while forming his rivets.

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/23pcs-Bead-Grain-Tool-Set-with-Graver-Wood-Handle-Diamond-Setting-Jewelry-TooMFS/402483618120?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

    I have yet to try them on any sort of quantity of rivets but I have had a play and they do seem to help remove some of the distortion.
     
  7. Mar 8, 2021 #7
    Mossy

    Mossy A classic grump Yorkshire man Full Member

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    Keith,

    I totally agree about the cost of a pro riveting tool, and its good to se both you and Paul recommend a cutting mat - I've just got to find it now.
    Do you anneal the brass first?

    Mossy
     
  8. Mar 8, 2021 #8
    Mossy

    Mossy A classic grump Yorkshire man Full Member

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    Keith

    Mine can from a very well known emporium I think.
     
  9. Mar 9, 2021 #9
    Keith M

    Keith M Staff Member Moderator

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    When I use it for kit building riveting, I don't normally anneal the brass fret beforehand. I find that using a cutting mat gives 'all round' support to the fret with just the right amount of 'give' allowing the 'rivet' effect to show on the opposite side. I've not tried using Rob's suggestion of lead sheet, but I'd imagine that would work in a similar way to a cutting mat, with a certain amount of 'give' due to the relative softness of the lead.
    Keith.
     
  10. Mar 9, 2021 #10
    Mossy

    Mossy A classic grump Yorkshire man Full Member

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    Keith, Paul, Rob,

    Thanks for all the suggestions on riveting. My wife is on granny day care tomorrow so free time (for a while) and I have identified which parts of the etch are needed so there are plenty of spares to experiment with. Hopefully I will be able post up some results some time tomorrow.

    Mossy
     
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  11. Mar 10, 2021 #11
    Mossy

    Mossy A classic grump Yorkshire man Full Member

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    Gents

    Granny day care is down at my daughters house and not back until after lunch so I have been experimenting for the last couple of hours, I would welcome your opinions on the results. I have tried scanning the results are ..... so given up and will have to describe the results.

    1. As suggested use a cutting mat to allow some flexing. 5 rivets punched out using 1,2,3,4 and 5 drops.
    1,2 and 3 didn't mark the brass, 4 and 5 caused minor cow pat type marks.

    2. Trying to use logic, never a good thing, either the brass is to hard/thick (its 10 thou I think) or the half etches aren't good enough.
    A bit of testing revealed the punch out marks are between .3mm and .4mm at their widest and appear to be slightly conical.
    So soften the brass by annealing and/or deepen the punch out marks

    3. Deepened the punch marks with a .6mm drill ad repeated the 1,2,3,4 5 experiment, better but ....

    4. Annealed the brass to cherry red and repeated, again better but about the same as test 3.

    5. Combined tests 3 and 4 and repeated, the best results so far but still not good, so now what?

    6. Final test was to deepen the punch marks, but then file down the strapping to reduce the thickness of it. Rivets appeared!
    As a side benefit the strap was significantly less distorted.

    The one test I didn't do was test 6 with annealed brass, but I need to do something constructive for a while.
    Given there are almost 50 separate pieces to treat with somewhere around 350-400 rivets, that's going to be a very long job!

    Mossy
     
  12. Mar 10, 2021 #12
    Keith M

    Keith M Staff Member Moderator

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    There are times with slightly thicker brass that I don't just drop the weight, but give it a downward 'flick' which results in a better impression. Once you get into a rhythm I find it works quite well. You could also try replacing the weight with one somewhat heavier to give a deeper impression. I have also used a spring-loaded centre punch with the point blunted, this is useful as the spring tension can be adjusted to give more 'oomph' if needed, and each operation gives a uniform impression as the spring tension is constant.
    Keith.
     
  13. Mar 10, 2021 #13
    Rob Pulham

    Rob Pulham Happily making models Staff Member Administrator Feature Contributor

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    I have to be honest and say Mossy, that was why I didn't get on with my drop riveter back in my 4mm days and very quickly moved to buying a GW Rivet press which I still have and use regularly. I also have the heavier duty model on long term loan but it doesn't have the cross slide that my smaller one has so I use whichever one suits the job when I am pressing rivets out.

    I have also tried Keith's method of a blunted spring loaded punch but again I didn't find the results suited me. Perhaps being a bit of a tool junkie, I wasn't patient enough with either of the 'cheaper' options.
     
  14. Mar 10, 2021 #14
    Keith M

    Keith M Staff Member Moderator

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    If I were building kits on commission for others like yourself Rob, then I'd also go for the 'professional' tools too. As I won't be building many items in 7mm it's not worth my spending a fair sum on a tool I wouldn't get my moneys worth out of, not a Yorkshireman ('Ow Much???!):giggle: but I do have a bit of Scots blood in me.:avatar:

    Keith.
     
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  15. Mar 10, 2021 #15
    Rob Pulham

    Rob Pulham Happily making models Staff Member Administrator Feature Contributor

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    Hi Keith,
    I bought mine long before I built kits on commissions. Given how many kits you build I would have thought that you would have plenty of use for one;)
     
  16. Mar 11, 2021 #16
    Mossy

    Mossy A classic grump Yorkshire man Full Member

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    The only rivet embossing tool I can find on the internet is one from metalsmiths Leeds and is priced at £62,
    do you know of any others Rob?

    Mossy
     
  17. Mar 11, 2021 #17
    Rob Pulham

    Rob Pulham Happily making models Staff Member Administrator Feature Contributor

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    Hi Mossy,

    Yes but you won't find George Watts on the internet.
    I will dig out his contact details for you.
     
  18. Mar 11, 2021 #18
    Keith M

    Keith M Staff Member Moderator

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    GW does a number of tools you won't find elsewhere, I have his 4mm version quartering tool, very useful for Gibson wheels. He's 'Darn Sarf', Sussex if I remember correctly and you will probably need to give him a ring to order. Unfortunately I can't presently find his details but no doubt Rob will get back to you with it.
    Keith.
     
  19. Mar 11, 2021 #19
    Mossy

    Mossy A classic grump Yorkshire man Full Member

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    I read Robs post but didn't connect GW with the name George Watts. I assumed it was something to do with that French railway Great Western.
     
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  20. Mar 11, 2021 #20
    paul_l

    paul_l Staff Member Administrator

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    The Great Western is bad but not THAT bad :avatar:, and for the GW to get to France I think they hit the buffers a bit too hard at Paddington :giggle:

    Paul
     
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