Some notes on a Furness RWC NER P4 Hopper Wagon

Keith, Paul, Rob,

Thanks for all the suggestions on riveting. My wife is on granny day care tomorrow so free time (for a while) and I have identified which parts of the etch are needed so there are plenty of spares to experiment with. Hopefully I will be able post up some results some time tomorrow.

Ignore this reply - wrong thread, just having a senior moment

Mossy

 

With some new found confidence in my riveting abilities, I have spent most of the day punching rivets in all the major strengthening plates with the exception of the obvious strapping plates. On count back 238 rivets and 10 handrail holes drilled (with a couple of cockups that need disguising). I also missed 2 plates that fit inside the hopper and have forgotten to enlarge the holes that take the buffers housings on the lower corner plates, they will be sorted tomorrow just before I start assembly of the basic wagon.



Next and this is off script from the instructions (none of the hand rails are mentions or shown in these) but based on the Peter Tatlow drawing.
Based on the drawings there are 2 which wrap around from the ends and locate into the upper corner reinforcement - these are pretty simple to represent.

Next and now it depends on if your modelling the early brake gear left and right hand brake levers (I am) or the later traditional righthand lever brakes i.e. after the Morton Cam gear was invented.

There is a short handrail on the lower lefthand corner support or is it a loop for horse shunting? Its shape or form isn't clear on the drawing.
There is also a handrail extending from the righthand upper corner support which fits into the side planking.

If modelling righthand brake lever, I assume these would be the same on each side, but modelling lefthand/righthand levers, one side was probably a mirror of the other, so I will be modelling the short rail on the left and right at one end of the wagon and the upper rail left and right at the other.

None of this is clear on any of the photos in the North Eastern Record or Tatlow, so it's all based my assumptions.

 

this message was wrong, couldnt find a delete option so blanked it instead

 

This is a replacement for the messed up message above.

I was sent a second diagram of a P4 yesterday which cannot be reproduced here due to copyright, but I have added an enlarged picture of a section of the sole.
If you compare the rivet pattern to those on the solebar from the etch it is very apparent there are 2 rivets missing, these should be directly above the righthand outer W iron support, the same error occurs on the other end of the solebar. Extra rivets will need to be embossed for these.

Mossy

 

Ha, ha ha, I was just interested so counted them, now a real anorak would tell you he had done another 70 since since and has roughly another 100 to do. Oh god am I really turning into a rivet counter - I need to seek medical help urgently!

 

There is an excellent article on the P4 hopper by Richard Lacey in North Eastern Express no 176 which has allowed me to figure out where and when all the external strapping was fitted. These notes are culled from the article

Fundamentally and a bit simplistic but as a summary:

Strapping:
Pre 1885 5 long straps, the 2 shown on the Peter Tatlow diagram, 2 just inboard of the corner reinforcements and a fifth positioned centrally.
There is a photo of a P3 hopper with this arrangement on page 81 of North Eastern Record vol 2.
From 1889 The centre strapping is omitted. Diagram accompanying the Richard Lacey article.
No date Later still the 2 outer straps were omitted. This is the Peter Tatlow diagram.

Brakes:
Always 4 shoes, mostly wooden brake blocks, some iron blocks.
Originally only 1 righthand brake lever.
Circa 1887 Morton duplex adopted with left and righthand levers.
Circa 1905 Morton Cam brakes with 2 righthand levers.

The plan.
Since I already have 2 P4's in the c 1887 style, this one will be built in the pre 1885 style. The etch provides sufficient strapping to do all 3 styles, although no notes are provided as to the variations possible.
What I have to solve is where to get an extra set of brake etches as the etch clearly only has enough components for 1 side.
Ideally 3 sets would be good so I can retro fit the missing brakes to the other 2 P4's I have.

All the way through the Richard Lacey article he uses the term "knees" when describing the long strapping. Does anyone have an explanation of this term?

 

Hi Rob,

The brake components are integral to the main etch so I think its probably unlikely Marc can help, but nowt lost from a quick email.
I assume he didn't know about the P4 having brakes on both sides or he would have added them to the etch.
In the mean time I will have a look at Ambis and see what they have got beyond that I'm clueless.

Mossy

 

Rob

I had already look there, the Bill Bedford etches are for 9' and 9' 6" wheelbases, the P4 is 10' 6".
.As you said Ambis do lots of levers, shoes etc but they don't seem to do brakes.

I think the only chance is to get some one to custom make some and thats going to be expensive, I am just going to have to ponder on the matter but thanks for the suggestions.

Mossy

 

Rob

That's a cracking idea but given the very brief descriptions of all of their kits, how would one ever discover which kits have a 10' 6" wheelbase.

I rang Peco to get a replacement fret for a NBR Open I got off ebay and the guy I spoke didn't know muck about any thing.
I had to talk him through what I wanted and needed.

I haven't spoken to Slaters before so don't know what their response would be.

I could then use the etch to upgrade on of the other P4's I have and use the plastic brakes on this one.

Mossy

 

Rob

I have emailed Marc Dobson to see what he may have, there's always a chance.

Mossy

 

Despite now being retired I am still waking up at silly o' clock for the drive to Warrington (a daily 112 mile round trip) and combining being on decorating duties and worrying about missing brake components duty all week, I took the opportunity of early morning light and 2 angle poise lamps to actually do what we all love - modelling.

Side ones strapping both inside and out added to the P4 this morning, hopefully I can get on with the other side later today.

 

More progress.

Strapping both internal and external completed, except for one very small piece which bumped into the famous carpet eater. I know there's some spares I just have to find them.
Supplementary handrails and horse shunting loop (as shown on the Richard Lacey diagram).
W irons fixed, so only the ends to do before first lockdown, awaiting a resolution of the braking problem.

 

End one finished, I ignored the big flitch plates which are shown in the instructions and used the very small plates as shown by the Lacey diagram. Also the rivet detail on the end posts was poor so I drilled then out and replaced then with bits of .7mm brass.

Buffers and coupling hook need to be painted black, so these will be left off until after the wagon is painted. I should have also left off the coupling hook plates, but got carried away, these will have to be paint black in situ.

Closeup photos show all sorts of bits I'm not happy with but hopefully a coat of paint will hide at least some of them. end 2 should be better not I have a process sorted out.