Help please info on BR Mk2d coaches

Discussion in 'Wagons & Rolling Stock' started by Robyn, Feb 22, 2020.

  1. Robyn

    Robyn Full Member

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    I have just purchased five Airfix Mk2d coaches to run behind my deltic, these are 3 x 1st class and 2 x brake composites. Was there ever a restaurant car or sleeper in this set? I was also wondering if any drawings of these coaches exist that I might use to hand craft the extra coaches. If I take the yellow stripe off one of the first class cars would that make a good representation of a second class?
     
  2. Andy_Sollis

    Andy_Sollis Full Member

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    A very interesting question... there are a few books about (and I can’t remember if I have the Mk2 book or just the Mk1.??)

    If there are non first class coaches, they seem to be very rare. However, they are now with Hornby so check their range. I don’t think there was a buffet coach ever produced.

    a quick google revealed the below...


    Over the years the British Railways Mark 2 design has been manufactured by many of the British model railway manufacturers.

    Hornby introduced Mk.2 BFK and TSO models in the late 1960s and these have remained in production intermittently ever since, sometimes being used to represent coaches of later variants (such as the Mk.2B BFK in the Royal Train). In 2013 (for the 2014 range) Hornby announced that it would produce the Mk2E variant. These are re-tooled versions and will be available in both their main range and their RailRoad range. Some from the main range will have interior lighting. Hornby are making three versions of the Mk2E i.e. FO, TSO and BSO.

    Airfix introduced Mk.2D BSO, FO and TSO models in the late 1970s, these going on to be produced by successors Mainline, Dapol and ultimately Hornby. The Airfix Mk.2D was a high quality model for its day, being more accurately detailed than most contemporary products, and it is still being produced by Hornby.

    So the brakes and first class (Brake Second open & First Open) seem to be the common ones found for sale.. weather the TSO (Tourist Second Open) coaches were all on layouts or cut up to make other variants who knows?

    of the real thing, they were built as the following.

    FO (First Open) - 47 built, numbers 3170–3216

    TSO (Tourist Second Open) - 128 built, numbers 5616–5743

    BSO (Brake Second Open) -
    17 built, numbers 9479–9495

    FK (First Corridor) - 49 built, numbers 13562–13610

    BFK (Brake First Corridor) - 34 built, numbers 14139–14172

    (so it doesn’t seem there were any Mk2d catering vehicles.)
    ** for corridor stock the letter K was used... and for corridor, think Compartment - or Kompartment !
     
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  3. Gary

    Gary Wants more time for modelling.... Staff Member Administrator

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  4. Andy_Sollis

    Andy_Sollis Full Member

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  5. Robyn

    Robyn Full Member

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    Thank you Andy and Gary. There is a bit of a story behind this because my ex and I were in the UK in 1981 long before I had any interest in trains and we went to York for a trip, from what I can gather the deltics were withdrawn later that same year. Len dragged me up the platform to see the loco and the only thing that interested me at the time was the weird name 'Tulyar' which stuck in my mind, fast forward and here I am modelling trains...who could have imagined that would happen. Anyhow, I have pre ordered a Tulyar loco from Rails of Sheffield and now want to recreate the train we went on together and I remember there was a buffet car in the set. I have found this info on another forum which indicates that the buffet cars and some others were Mk1's.

    "Catering and full brake vehicles were Mk1s typically on B4 or B5 bogies but some BGs and Mk1 Dining (no kitchen) Cars were on Commonwealths. Seating coaches were usually Mk2d with some 2fs. It is important to note that all Class 55s and some 47/4s (which often deputised/operates the less important services) can only operate with certain Mk2d and NO Mk2e vehicles. Sets would typically be Mk2d BFK (or Mk1 BG), 2 Mk2d FO or FK, Mk1 RBR, 4 or 5 Mk2d TSO, sone times a Mk2d BSO instead of/in addition to a TSO. Some sets had a Mk1 RU or RMB instead of the RBR and some Mk1 RUO could be found in some sets. Both TSO and FO would be used as dining cars on some services."

    Research is such fun...but I have so much to learn. My knowledge of Aussie trains is pretty good but the British trains is a whole new adventure.

    Robyn
     
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  6. Gary

    Gary Wants more time for modelling.... Staff Member Administrator

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    Oops, Sorry Robyn, I was reading Gloria's post on the weather just prior to replying to this thread... All edited now !
     
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  7. Robyn

    Robyn Full Member

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    No problems Gary, thank you for the information you provided.
    Robyn
     
  8. York Paul

    York Paul Staff Member Moderator

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    Andy, rakes of Mark 2's always ran with a Mark 1 Restaurant Buffet car... there were no Mark 2 buffet coaches ever produced. When I was on the railway during that time Mark 2 E and F designs were brand new (these had better air con systems and therefore needed less equipment under the frames, the ceilings had a different and better curved profile because the ducting channels had been improved) and a typical 12 coach rake would be as follows: First Class at the front, Second Class at the rear with Restaurant Buffet facilities in the middle if travelling Up to London. Some Manchester Picc Euston rakes had a full Mark 1 BG attached but mainly the brakes were BSO and BFK (if Mark 2D) or BFO if Mark 2E or F.

    Robyn the shell structure used is the same for either class of travel, the seats in the first class have wider spacings tho, the moquette is red in the first and blue in the second class, the gangway end corridor connection doors are painted bright orange on the Mark 2D as is the internal melamine glass fibre panels but on the Mark 2E and F that changes to pale cream. You will also notice some variation in roof end profiling and ventilation ports.
     
  9. York Paul

    York Paul Staff Member Moderator

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    Not sure you need this info but it may be helpful, apologies to you if you don't.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_coach_designations
    So the definition of an RMB buffet car reads = Restaurant Modular Buffet... the B suffix denotes "Buffet" in this instance and not "Brake" since an Buffet car wouldn't have a guards brake compartment which the suffix B also denotes.

    55015 (D9015) Tulyar was always allocated to Finsbury Park London and was withdrawn 2nd January 1982, so when you saw 55015 it was probably only months away from being switched off, the loco still exists.

    Incidentally if you need to look at Mark 2 air con coaches down under then 140 were sold to the New Zealand Railway syslem for main line use... probably worth a peek to see if any are still around.
     
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  10. Robyn

    Robyn Full Member

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    Thank you Paul I will print a copy of the BR coach designations for my reference as this is quite valuable info. Is the coloured strip above the window a different colour for 2nd class or are they all yellow? Sorry about all the questions.
     
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  11. York Paul

    York Paul Staff Member Moderator

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    The yellow stripe on coaching stock below the cantrail (gutters) denotes only first class seating, this was a pre requisite of the British Rail 1966 Corporate Image painting policy. The yellow colour was the same shade as used on BR engineers road vehicles and not the Warning Yellow found on the fronts of engines and powered units. First class also had a Rail Alphabet 1 on doors leading to the first class area and a rectangular sticker with the wording either First or a letter 1 applied in the window, second class coaches had no identifying marks and so the area above the cantrail was just Rail Blue colour. Now the Resturant / Kitchen / Buffet and Micro Bar coaches had a red strip denoting their use, this red colour was the same as Rail Red... all these colours are available for modelers.

    Now I found this for you;

    http://www.eastbank.org.uk/images/Coaches/CS0149.jpg

    This Mark 2 coach was a conversion from a Tourist Second Open and was one of only two conversions as a self service Bar outlet, presumably with dispensing machines, certainly this is the only example of refreshment facilities using Mark 2 stock that I know of. You can clearly see how the Rail Blue paint is used on the Second Class coach to the right of the Bar coach in this picture.

    Don't worry about asking too many questions, we are all here to help and share information when asked for, so if I don't do some reserch for our newer members Toto (our glorious leader) will threaten to send me some of his many loco kits to have built. :avatar:

    cheers York Paul
     
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  12. Robyn

    Robyn Full Member

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    Thanks again York Paul, I must be honest it took a while to get my head around some of the rolling stock codes for Aussie railways with some stock having up to four different codings. The British system seems a little easier to understand, I try to get things correct as much as I can but sometimes a little modellers licence comes into play.
     
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  13. Andy_Sollis

    Andy_Sollis Full Member

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    So what did I do wrong? :giggle::giggle:
     
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  14. York Paul

    York Paul Staff Member Moderator

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    Dude you did nothing wrong I merely added to your superb information stream with additional stuff of interest I found on the subject.:thumbup:
    Just be so thankful you work in 4mm scale otherwise I suspect a rather long and somewhat heavy parcel could be winging its way to you for building ... don't worry everything would be supplied... wheels, motor, gearing, pick ups, hornblocks, chips, speakers ... even the desired number as long as it is a Haymarket allocation.:avatar::avatar::avatar:
     
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  15. Echidna

    Echidna Full Member

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    Hello All,

    1 / the Red Stripe indicating Restaurant / Buffet facilities, and the Yellow Stripe representing First Class dates back to 1964, and predates both the XP64 and the new British Rail Corporate Image alphabet and colour scheme. The striping was introduced to be compatible with the European coach markings, and presumably, done through the relevant UIC committee. ( There is a reference in Modern Railways, which I currently cannot find ! )

    2 / RMB code is for Restaurant Miniature Buffet, not Modular, whose original, and short lived, Code was BSO(T) Brake Second Open ( Trolley ). There was no Dia No., for this vehicle. The Micro Buffet occupied the former toilet compartment and the adjacent seating bay. It was a Mk 1 coach and there was a short Red Stripe above these windows, with "Micro-Buffet" on a white signboard with capital red letters. M9377 is illustrated as at 1979. Additional numbers, 9000-9016
    ( conversions 1980-1981 ), withdrawn by 1991. Commonwealth or B4 bogies would have been fitted, B4 bogies were lighter, and cheaper to maintain.

    Reference "British Railways Mark 1 Coaches" Keith Parkin ( Pendragon / HMRS ) pp 145-146, 205.

    3 / Blue and Grey Corporate Image was introduced in 1965, and started to be regularly seen from 1966 onwards. Coach liveries usually lasted 8 years, during which time touch up painting and revarnishing would usually have occurred. This is due to sunlight fade affecting the colour.

    Regards, Echidna.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2021
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  16. Echidna

    Echidna Full Member

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    Hello All,

    further to the above,

    1 / with reference to pp181-182, "British Rail Mark 2 Coaches - the design that launched InterCity" Michael Harris ( Mallard Venture, 1999 ), and pp 14-15,
    "BR Coaching Fleet, Mk2, Mk3, & Mk 4", Ashley Butlin ( British Railways Illustrated Modern Times Series, Irwell Press, 1998 ).

    2 / Mk 2c Micro Buffet ( TSOT / Tourist Second Open, Trolley ), converted 1980-81 from TSO, wthd 1992-93, nos 6500 - 6529.

    3 / Mk 2d Micro Buffet ( TSOT ), converted 1980-81 from TSO, wthd 1992-94, nos 6600 - 6619.

    4 / Mk 2d Miniature Buffet, converted 1986 from TSOT, ( new code ? ), wthd unknown, nos 6652, 6660 - 6662, 6665. ( Modular Buffet design, which served as prototypes for Mk 3 Buffet , replacement for Mk 1 TSOT 's listed above.

    5 / Mk 2 Brake Open Standard Micro-Buffet ( BSOT ), converted 1983-86 from BSO, wthd circa 1991, nos 9100 - 9107.

    6 / it would appear that trolley service Buffet cars were all xxxT, however Item 4 above, may have received a new carriage Code, but I have not, so far, come across what it was.

    Regards, Echidna.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2021
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  17. jcm@gwr

    jcm@gwr Full Member

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    I would argue that they did make mk2 catering coaches, the Pullman coaches were made from mk2 units, and are
    included in the book "British Rail Mark 2 Coaches - the design that launched InterCity"
     
  18. Echidna

    Echidna Full Member

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    Hello All,

    excluding the Mk 2 Pullmans, which are really a premium set formation intended to replace the Blue Pullman dmu sets, the Mk 2 series was not intended to have Restaurant or Buffet car new builds due to The Mk 1 catering stock, especially the RMB, being 1960s build, and so weren't nominally due for withdrawal until the 1990s, in line with the 1957 BTC policy of 30 years service.

    As can be seen from the above, this is what actually transpired. The thinking was that the Mk 3 stock would also include replacement catering vehicles, which again is what happened.The production line at Litchurch Lane, Derby was designed for continuous mass production of Mk 2, and later Mk 3 body shells, which included the cl 310 and 312 emu body shells.

    However, the reality was that the demand for catering was changing from the traditional served lunch type meals to hot snacks with a greater variety of choice, and the need to provide hot snacks quickly, combined with changing food preparation regulations, meant that rebuilding older cars became too expensive, and deliveries of replacement Mk 3 stock were delayed by funding restrictions, hence the need to rebuild existing coaches , though in practice it was also found that some Mk 2 stock selected for conversion suffered extensive internal corrosion, which may also explain why some Mk 2 coaches had a relatively short life compared to Mk 1 stock.

    Some preserved railways who own Mk 2 stock have found that internal corrosion is both difficult and expensive to fix, especially when compared to Mk 1 stock, which can be repaired fairly easily due to the older design. The Mk 1 is really an all steel version of a pre WW2 wooden framed steel coach in design, whereas the Mk 2 is an all welded monocoque shell, whose integrity is dependent on that shell remaining intact.

    Regards, Echidna
     
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