Some notes on a Furness RWC NER P4 Hopper Wagon

Discussion in 'Kits, Kit bashes & Scratch builds' started by Mossy, Mar 7, 2021.

  1. Mossy

    Mossy Full Member

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    The NER had a general policy of excluding PO wagons from their network, so had to build huge numbers of hopper wagons, over 28,000 P4’s and over 24,000 P5 wagons were built, with large numbers lasting through to nationalisation. In the early 1900’s these were supplemented by diagram P7 20 ton hoppers (the Slaters kit) and Dia P13/14/15 32 and 40 ton bogie hoppers. Any layout based in the North East right through from the end of the 19th century right through to nationalisation needs to feature some of each of these hopper wagons.

    So what do you get for £55, well the two photos are pretty self-explanatory. All the major components are cast resin and are assembled using super glue. Smaller components are 3D printed. The major component of the kit is the large amount of strapping and detailing which are in etched brass. These are not kits which require “construction” more kits that’s need assembly and decoration.

    The construction notes are available on-line as PDF’s, but what will become very apparent is a complete lack of identification of which strapping is which (other than some photos), the only way I have found to figure out what goes where is to get a decent diagram of the wagon and then to start rivet counting and guessing. The other problem in fitting the strapping is there are no witness marks or measurements which would aid the correct positioning, it’s down to scaling off the positions from a decent drawing, I use the drawings from Peter Tatlows, excellent book.

    This will be my 3rd P4 hopper build so a couple of points where I varied from the instructions which make things a little easier.

    The strapping that is fitted to the hopper doors is much easier done before fitting the doors
    into the chassis.

    The holes for the end and side handrails are best drilled before fitting the corner bracing to
    the body. They can then be drilled into the body later.

    The curved end planks (if your fitting them) and end beams are best fitted after
    assembling the wheels and brake gear, you have a much more stable base to fit the
    underframe components.

    There is little else to say really, so I will just post the odd photo as the build progresses.

    This is a super glue fest, but does anyone know of a better solution to glue resin to resin and brass to resin. I hate super glue.

    The one component missing from the kit are the very prominent monkey tails which automatically open the hopper doors, does anyone know if these are available from a supplier as I would like to fit them to this wagon and probably retrofit them to my other hoppers.

    Contents Rest.JPG Contents - Cast Resin.JPG Strapping measurments.jpg
     
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  2. Rob Pulham

    Rob Pulham Happily making models Staff Member Administrator Feature Contributor

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    Hi Mossy,

    I am pretty sure that I have a Medley version of a P4 somewhere in a drawer something tells me that despite your struggles to ideintify which bit goes where, you will have an easier job of it than me.

    That said I know it is buildable because Richard Marsden, the gent who owns the LNER.info website/forum built one a few years ago. It was on the strength of this that I bought one.

    I look forward to seeing yours finished which I am sure will be long before mine sees daylight again.
     
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  3. Mossy

    Mossy Full Member

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    Rob,

    I knew Medley/NER Days did P4 hoppers, but haven't seen the etch but as you say its going to be far more difficult than the relatively easy FRWC kit. Marc Dobson grades his kits 1, 2, 3 and 4, this is classed 2, but to be honest I haven't seen one graded 1. A full blown explanation of the build would be totally over the top, so it will be just a few photos at crucial points of the build.

    I'm doing this kit as a relatively relaxing infill before the NER Days B1 etch arrives (that should be in about 2 weeks time).

    The main reasons for doing it are to try improve my riveting technique, I don't have a fancy riveting tool just an ordinary drop weight job, so any advice or suggestions would be gratefully and to try scratch build decent monkey tails, current thoughts are the head of a hand rail knob on 7mm wire and a small washer to represent the quadrant which can be seen behind the tail.

    Mossy
     
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  4. Mossy

    Mossy Full Member

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    I am pretty sure there is quite a bit of redundancy on the etch but if you use it all there are just under 600 rivets to punch out
     
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  5. Rob Pulham

    Rob Pulham Happily making models Staff Member Administrator Feature Contributor

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    Hi Mossy,

    I made some monkey tails on one of my wagons and I think I used brass dressmaker's pins.
    To be honest I hadn't thought of the bead off a handrail knob.
     
  6. Mossy

    Mossy Full Member

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    My wife has some of them but the head looks to large that's why I thought of handrail knobs, the only drawback there is the expense, they don't come cheap.
     
  7. paul_l

    paul_l Staff Member Administrator

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    While looking for suitable pins to be used as plunger pickups I came across these on Amazon 60 of each size for £8.69

    upload_2021-3-8_1-22-51.png

    No use for plunger pickups but may be useful

    Paul
     
  8. paul_l

    paul_l Staff Member Administrator

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    Ach - I'll post pics in a couple of days I just ordered them, I can see them being useful for different handles pullcords etc etc.

    Paul
     
  9. Mossy

    Mossy Full Member

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    First go at a monkey tail using a handrail knob. I think it needs a larger radius curve, so back to the drawing board.
     

    Attached Files:

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  10. Mossy

    Mossy Full Member

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    Attempt 1 used a short handrail knob which was difficult to cut off, attempt 2 used a long one, much easier.
    I also increased the radius of the curve, a much better showing all round, given they will be sitting between the wheels etc,
    this one is perfectly acceptable to me and producing 4 per hopper wagon should be very straight forward.

    6C3A5673.JPG
     
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  11. Mossy

    Mossy Full Member

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    Well like No 9 buses you wait forever and 4 come along at once.
    Monkey Tails or futuristic Triffids?

    Now back to strapping and rivets, what an exciting life we lead.

    Mossy

    6C3A5676.JPG
     
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  12. Rob Pulham

    Rob Pulham Happily making models Staff Member Administrator Feature Contributor

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    Excellent, I just need to remember the method when I get to my P4.
     
  13. Mossy

    Mossy Full Member

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    Hi Rob,

    Its nice to come up with something, such an accomplished scratch builder like you hadn't though of.

    Mossy
     
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  14. Tom Burnham

    Tom Burnham Full Member

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    Hi Mossy,

    I can't remember if I've already sent you a copy of this drawing of a monkey tail but if not it should be of some help.


    Monkey Tail.jpg

    Cheers,
    Tom.
     
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  15. Mossy

    Mossy Full Member

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    Thanks Tom, how are you keeping.

    It looks like I need to easy out the curved potions of my monkey tails even more than I have.
    A is obviously the monkey tail but do you know what B, C and D are.

    On a different subject, do you know if NER luggage Barrows and Hand Carts, were painted any specific colours, or were they just wood with black iron work.

    Mossy
     
  16. Rob Pulham

    Rob Pulham Happily making models Staff Member Administrator Feature Contributor

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    Hi Mossy,

    Tom's post has reminded me that I have this which may also be of help.

    Monkey Tail.JPG
     
  17. Tom Burnham

    Tom Burnham Full Member

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    Mossy,

    These cruel enlargements of the side view from the P7 General Arrangement drawing and photos of the monkey tails on the P7 at Shildon should help to clarify the arrangement.
    I'll have to get back to you on the painting of the barrows and hand carts.

    Tom.
    Image (240)_edited-2.jpg Monkey Tail P7.jpg Monkey Tail.jpg
     
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  18. Tom Burnham

    Tom Burnham Full Member

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    Hi Mossy,

    According to Vol. 1 of the North Eastern Record, the passenger luggage barrows were painted green with black metal parts and there is a suggestion that goods barrows were painted grey.

    Tom.
     
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  19. Mossy

    Mossy Full Member

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    Tom

    I looked through all3 vols of the Record and obviously missed it, anyway thanks for the update.
     
  20. paul_l

    paul_l Staff Member Administrator

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    Those pins arrived today



    0.6 mm dia on the stem, 0.7 dia on the head - but may be my very-near caliper to blame, I can see these being useful for all sorts of handles.

    Paul
     

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