Harding's Staithes - P4, 1960s industrial layout

Discussion in 'Members Personal Layouts' started by D827 Kelly, Jan 1, 2021.

  1. D827 Kelly

    D827 Kelly Full Member

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    Having recently joined, I thought I'd post a little about the project I've been working on and off for the last couple of years. Not much physical has occurred yet (aside from baseboards from Tim Horn that is), but a Templot plan has been drawn up and printed out, it just awaits my getting around to finding the time (and space) to sit and build the pointwork for it now really and the Judith Edge kit for Harton No. 2.

    The layout plan is based on the High Staithes of the Harton Electric Railway. Set in the mid-1960s, with the 3rd Rail Tyneside Electric extended slightly to be the scenic break on the left. A small portion of docks will be viewable underneath the Staithes and probably operated by a small industrial loco of some kind. The layout will be about 10ftx2ft and P4.

    The Layout plan is as follows:

    On the left is the fiddle yard, with the Tyneside electric line running across diagonally on a viaduct.

    In the bottom left is a landsale depot, with the staithes on the bottom right along with an overflow siding. The centre is the road down towards the dock, passing the wagon repair shop at the bottom.

    The far right is the dockyard, with a short length of line, with the rest of the dock line off scene. The Harton system and the Dock system intersect via a wagon turntable (in P4, it would be too tight to get a point connection in, though I am considering extending the Dock line to run under the staithes branch).

     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2021
  2. Kimbo

    Kimbo Staff Member Moderator

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  3. D827 Kelly

    D827 Kelly Full Member

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    Thanks Kim.

    The loco fleet for the Harton portion will likely be limited to Harton No.2, No.10 and Nos.13-15 as that is all that is available in kit form for the Harton. No.9 is rather unique and I'd like a model of it, but I suspect I'll have to wait and see if Judith Edge ever do it. No.1 is potentially possible to bodge from the Judith Edge No.2 kit, but probably easier to start afresh. At some point I need to sit down and work out drawing etches (or maybe drawing 3D printing files).

    For the Tyneside section I have a Tyneside EPB conversion using Replica parts partially completed, I just need to finish off the cab fronts and then I can add final details and look at painting it. A second Tyneside unit will follow when I've done the first. I might look at the other units that ran on the branch, but not currently a priority. E68000 will probably be attempted from MJT/Replica parts at some point too.

    The dock is the unknown bit atm, as that is rather freelance, so it could be anything really. It hasn't been decided yet if it will be a Port Authority or a private dock branch, or an NCB owned Dock branch. It won't be Harton electric anyway, as the overhead will end at the point the two meet (probably a little before). Maybe a NCB or fictitious port authority 0-4-0 steam or diesel loco or two.

    The wagon fleet will mainly be 20T (L)NER Wooden hoppers (the Slater's kit is for the P7 variant, when it should really be the P4 variant) and BR 21T riveted Hoppers. the correct 21T NCB hoppers in riveted form don't exist sadly, though Dave Bradwell does the welded version, but they didn't get introduced until the mid-70s (likewise the welded BR 21T).

    I have been pondering whether a hump shunt might work for unloading in the staithes, with a single wagon at a time rolling to discharge and then being pushed out and down a slight incline to be collected in a group of 4. It might be a bit too ambitious though, but would add a lot to the operation.
     
  4. Kimbo

    Kimbo Staff Member Moderator

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    That’s going to be a great project build, with a great selection of motive power. There’s a few pictures, which I’m sure you have found on the nett, of the NCB hoppers, which look really good.
    The hump shunt could be a whole project on its own, I’ve read about a couple of working ones on other forums, not an easy item to build and operate correctly, but if your up for the challenge, go for it.


    These might be of interest, no doubt you have seen them before



    shunting starts approx 2:49 on this video...






    Not a hump shunt, but it does show a clever way of rolling the empty wagons back into a collection siding.



    Kim
     
  5. D827 Kelly

    D827 Kelly Full Member

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    Thanks for the links Kim. I'll take a look when I get a moment.

    The last one has given me an idea on how I could make the wagon return to roll down after 'unloading'. As it will be P4, the gradients probably don't have to be very much for the wagons to roll a short distance onto the staithes and 'unload'* and then be pushed to roll down again as the wheels will be rather free moving and the weight will aid it.

    * I had the hairbrained idea too of having the 21T hoppers discharge, but that is a step too far I think for 4mm, though I've seen others who have done it. The more sensible approach is probably magnetic loads and a small device to lift them off as the wagon goes into the staithes, that should be in theory doable. But as with both these things until I come to build the track work I won't know how viable it is going to be really to some extent and some experimentation will likely occur. First I have to build the points though!

    Incidentally, heres the link to the thread I made for this plan a few years ago over on rmweb. It gives a bit more detail and background, as well as some video links to Harton videos on youtube.
     
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  6. D827 Kelly

    D827 Kelly Full Member

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    This video shows the low staithes (much bigger than the high staithes I intend to model) and the gravity shunting they employed (at about the 4 minute mark). The High Staithes didn't have gravity shunting, but it is something that would add some interest. As it'll be a single wagon discharge rather than the 4+ at the low staithes it should be much easier to do as it'll only need to be raising and lowering a small amount to send the wagon down, then up in the staithes (held somehow), then released and down to join the other unloaded wagons before the loco draws them away. In theory it sounds plausible. But practice is another matter of course. It'll be a fun challenge the figure out!

    I think I'll probably make a small diorama of it to see if it is viable, as I can use the track plan from Templot for that part of the staithes, the trackwork is already ready template wise, just to be built and then see what happens... just need to get the needed ply for it!
     
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  7. Kimbo

    Kimbo Staff Member Moderator

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    That’s a great video Kelly. I’ve read your rmweb thread as well :thumbup:
    Very interesting project to get a free rolling wagon to run reliably and smoothly down to the staithes without smashing into them, possibly, some sort of braking system with a retaining latch to hold the wagon in the staithes before manually or electrically releasing the latch to allow the wagon to rejoin the others..:scratchchin:

    here’s another working gravity system....works well but personally I think the last incline makes the wagon move to fast.....

     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2021
  8. D827 Kelly

    D827 Kelly Full Member

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    Kim, thanks for posting the video. That is actually the video I saw a while ago that gave me the idea, but I couldn't find it again when I had a search.

    I agree that the wagon is a bit too fast for my liking.

    The bit on the far left would effectively be hidden within the Staithes building, I'm wondering if an electronic magnet would hold the wagon in place long enough for the load to be removed from above with a magnet? And then gently let go to roll down again but not quite as far as in the video.
     
  9. Kimbo

    Kimbo Staff Member Moderator

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    Last edited: Jan 2, 2021
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  10. D827 Kelly

    D827 Kelly Full Member

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    That is another option yes. I'll probably have a think about it at a later date when I've had chance to start building the points needed for that bit.

    I've been thinking about the gradients for the line down to the dock level, and I'm starting to think it'd be too severe to work reliably. It would need to go from the height the staithes sat above the baseboard top (height of stock plus some room to get a hand in if needed) and down beyond the basedboard top level (the dock would probably be an inch or two below the end of the main boards to give more of a drop for the staithes over the 'Tyne'. That space to go down to that level would be somewhere between 6ft to 8ft depending upon where it starts. It might well be easier to have the line lower down to start with and avoid the need for the gradient, but have the line for the off scene second set of staithes (to give a little more operational interest) go across the top of it on a bridge diverging from the line to the first staithes after emerging from under the viaduct.
     
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  11. paul_l

    paul_l Staff Member Administrator

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    How about using a pair of check rails pivoted towards the exit end using a cam operated by a servo. The cam would allow the gap between the check rails and stock rails to be reduced to provide a level of braking, I suppose the skill would be getting the setting correct so bracking is applied without the wheels riding up and off the rails.

    The servo and cam should provide fine adjustment.

    Paul
     
  12. D827 Kelly

    D827 Kelly Full Member

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    Thanks for the replies. Sorry I haven't replied sooner, life got in the way during the pandemic and then a house move started and was followed by my breaking my ankle and leg in February, so thoughts of model railways have been rather off my mind for a while now unfortuately.

    However I'm starting finally to regain my mobility and with the house moving (me moving into my partners place that is rather than a full house move) 90% complete now I have turned attention to the projects I was thinking about/working on.

    I have had to take the decision that plans as such as they were have to change due to differences in storage and space. I have more space to erect a set of boards logitudinally than I previously did however, so the planned Shepperton based layout can become long rather than a sweeping L, but thats a project for another year. First Harton.

    I've been redrawing the designs since and have simplified the design somewhat. Consulting with Natalie, she ideally wants a 3 road shunting area for the staithes area, having looked at it I'm not sure it can work without 3way/tamden or double slip pointwork, something I'm a bit apprehensive about building currently.

    Some of the deisigns I came up with were.

    First shortening and removing the viaduct and dock lines (I'm not sure what the scenic break might be as yet).

    harton_new_revised_v1.2_diag.png
    harton_new_revised_v1.5.png
    harton_new_revised_v1.5_-_revised_shortened.png

    Then the shorterned version was then changed to a 3 track approach with a seperate line (which would be at a lower level as per the first version above) to the wagon works.

    harton_new_revised_v2_diagagram_mode.png
    harton_new_revised_v2.png
    harton_new_revised_v2_drawing_mode.png

    These are still works in progress and I'm awaiting Natalie giving me her full thoughts. Ideally I think doing it without a double slip or a 3 way/tandem would be best, but that limits options due to the extra length of the points (points are A6 mostly IIRC, as the locos and stock are fairly short wheelbase (especially Harton No.2/10) I think this is probably fine and mirrors the real thing to an extent).

    Thoughts about unloading/loading and gradients have been abandoned to keep things simpler with a fresh look at the whole thing. This is really supposed to be a learning excercise for P4 after all.
     
  13. Chris Doroszenko

    Chris Doroszenko Lost in the spare room Full Member

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    Great to hear your alive and mobile again...looking forward to seeing this in the flesh...sounds like you have really thought this out...I like the double slip but for me that would be a daunting undertaking too.
    Well... its your layout and you have to be happy with it.

    Kind regards
    Chris
     
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  14. D827 Kelly

    D827 Kelly Full Member

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    Thanks Chris. I'm sort of mobile, owing to crutches, but much improved compared with March where I was mostly bed bound.

    Getting this plan built and running will still take a fair amount of time until everything from moving my stuff from my flat to my partner's house is finished and I can organise the items in the new home.

    I'm thinking the double slip will probably not end up in the final version of the track plan as I don't feel confident I would be able to build it at this point in time! I've just about managed to build a C&L B6 point kit without too much problem however, but the Harton track plan will use much smaller and tighter pointwork.
     
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