Rebuilt Patriot

Discussion in 'Gladiator Models' started by York Paul, Dec 27, 2021.

  1. York Paul

    York Paul Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    5,313
    Likes Received:
    5,934
    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2017
    This recent purchase from Mr Gladiator is a present from me to me and I've made a bit of a start on it, so here is a build thread... main frames cut for hornblocks. Well I'm wondering if there is any advantage if the forward driving wheels should remain rigid with soldered bearings and the centre and rear wheels fitted with hornblocks acting in the same way as a compensation beam ? Or is it better that all three wheelsets are fitted to spring? Anyway comments on what chaps think please.

    [​IMG]

    Moving on the Stanier 4000gal tender is underway too, I've spring the centre wheels with hornblocks and have drilled for sprung pickups on front and rear wheels. Next job will be to form the side raves but that can wait until light levels improve.

    [​IMG]


    Finally for now the etch nameplate set to make 45531 Sir Frederick Harrison.


    [​IMG]
     
    Steve Fay, paul_l and Andy_Sollis like this.
  2. Andy_Sollis

    Andy_Sollis Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    3,084
    Likes Received:
    2,967
    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2018
    Tender coming on nicely… I don’t know enough about suspension to comment on the driving axles..
     
  3. Rob Pulham

    Rob Pulham Happily making models Staff Member Administrator Feature Contributor

    Messages:
    3,261
    Likes Received:
    3,283
    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2017
    Usually builders leave the rear axle un-sprung so that it simplifies the attachment of the motor (i.e. they don't have to worry about making sure that the motor can move up and down with the compensation/springing while not being able to rotate about the axle).

    Your tender build is interesting in that I am building the 10 ton version of the 4000 gallon tender still... and to put it mildly it has been a pig. Both I believe were designed by David Andrews (but I may be wrong because Peter Dobson did some of the designing for Gladiator after David Andrews left the partnership to set up on his own so Peter may well have designed this one). I have had to chop 2mm out of the coal space plates where it fits under the front plate behind where the cupboards are.
    Once I have it cracked I will update my thread but at the minute I am still bashing the head:headbanger:
     
    York Paul likes this.
  4. Torry

    Torry Full Member

    Messages:
    43
    Likes Received:
    76
    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2021
    It’s whatever works for you. Everyone has their own personal preferences. Personally as you’re 2/3 of the way there I would spring all six axles using Slaters hornblocks after marking off the axle centre line with the axle currently fixed. If a kit manufacturer provides their own method of compensation I will use that
    I’ve included a link from the ABC gears website which maybe useful (or not) which discusses the various merits of compensation.

    https://www.abcgears.co.uk/abc_gears_-_loco_suspension.pdf
     
    Andy_Sollis and York Paul like this.
  5. York Paul

    York Paul Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    5,313
    Likes Received:
    5,934
    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2017
    Thanks Torry, before I did any cutting out the Slaters hornblock casting was measured against the half etch lines to see how it would fit, the axle centre dashes align with the little centre line nibs on the hornblock casting. So with that information the cuts were made knowing that the complete weight of the loco would displace a load equally and at the correct height under compression. Thanks for the ABC link ... I have an ABC helical gearmotor set (VML 2) if I recall correctly... very good motors I think. Thanks again for your help and advice Torry... tismuch appreciated.
     
    Andy_Sollis likes this.
  6. paul_l

    paul_l Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    8,949
    Likes Received:
    4,904
    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2015
    And don't forget to include the front bogie in the compensation schema - I have Mike Sharman's Flexichas book - that should put the fear of god in you :avatar:

    Paul
     
    jakesdad13, Andy_Sollis and York Paul like this.
  7. York Paul

    York Paul Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    5,313
    Likes Received:
    5,934
    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2017
    Thanks Robfor your help, yes this tender had exactly the same issue ... 2mm cut and filed down on the left side and the tool tunnel floor cut back to the forward bulkhead along with 2mm down the side slope. I found the chassiswas a doddle and the brake rigging unclips via tubes fixed to the crank shaft. I worked on the basis that all the other kits (mainly Scorpio) adopted a fixed front axle with compensation beam forming the distribution triangle... never had any issues there and a fixed front axle will allow a datum for joining the mainframe together using an alignment bar in a chassis jig...well that was my thinking.
     
    Andy_Sollis likes this.
  8. York Paul

    York Paul Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    5,313
    Likes Received:
    5,934
    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2017
    I've considered that also Paul ... in the Caprotti and the Brit that I built previously I made a floating box which allowed lateral and vertical spring action through the bogie stretcher beam... the floating box slid within a channel fitted to the bogie pivot. End stops on the channel had two short stubs which captured the spring... the stubs didn't meet the pivot but went into the floating box for only half its lateral travel distance which allowed an equal sideways movement where one spring was under compression whilst the other was loose and visa versa. I also did something similar on those two tank engines which stopped the bogie trucks from drooping and swinging away when the loco was picked up. Oh gosh not mentioning that dreaded ACME Ivatt 2 tank again.:avatar: Just on another note I have a loco here which even beats that ACME kit... its a freind on mine who has asked me to complete his Hughes Fowler Crab... personally I would have give £100 for it never mind the asking price of £425 which he paid last year. Honestly that kit is a complete shed... I'm half tempted to just chuck it in the dustbin as its that evil.:scratchchin::facepalm:
     
    paul_l, jakesdad13 and Andy_Sollis like this.
  9. Toto

    Toto I'm best ignored Staff Member Founder Administrator

    Messages:
    15,364
    Likes Received:
    3,795
    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2017
    That would be admitting defeat Yorkie. ....... tisk tisk..... let's have none of that please. Very negative vibes :avatar:
     
    York Paul likes this.
  10. paul_l

    paul_l Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    8,949
    Likes Received:
    4,904
    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2015
    Moriarty
    [​IMG]

    upload_2021-12-30_15-42-14.png

    :avatar:
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2021
    jakesdad13 and York Paul like this.
  11. York Paul

    York Paul Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    5,313
    Likes Received:
    5,934
    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2017
    I'll put some pictures up of the Hughes Fowler Crab as part built by its owner... I managed to resolder the front fall plate buffer beam back correctly onto the footplate... the brass is such a thin etch it just sucks in the heat and warps. Thankfully the cab hasn't been touched and is still on the frets so I'm in with a fighting chance there. No this won't beat me ... I don't let the gash kits get the better so this doing this one will be a challenge. The chassis needs re strengthening as well as it wriggles around like a jelly eel.
     
    Andy_Sollis and jakesdad13 like this.
  12. York Paul

    York Paul Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    5,313
    Likes Received:
    5,934
    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2017
    A few quite days after the Christmas celebrations allowed me to focus on preparing and building up the mainframes which involved cutting out for Slaters hornblocks and drilling for sprung pick ups, I've opted after some research to keep the front axle solid and fit hornblocks to the centre and rear axles... the rear hornblocks were set to stop at the same height as the front fixed axle, only the centre axle springs 0.5mm either way. The front truck will also be fitted to spring vertically and laterally... this should distribute the full load in an even and balanced manner in a similar way to a compensation beam forming a load triangle. Anyway enough of that theoretical blurb and on with a couple of pics... brake harness now fitted along with rear sandbox and valves. Next job is remove the wheelsets and real out for 10BA crankpins and brass nutaged bearings. I'll form and fit the sand pipes later on in the build.

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
     
    Keith M, paul_l, jakesdad13 and 3 others like this.
  13. York Paul

    York Paul Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    5,313
    Likes Received:
    5,934
    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2017
    Bit more progress on 45531 Sir Frederick Harrison, the bogie truck is made but requires some lateral and vertical springing through a pivot and stretcher beam... I shall scratch make this to my own design as I have done previously on other locos with two axle front trucks. The basic footplate assembly is done so I can use this as a datum for building up the cylinder block... once that is done the wheels can come off and have crank pins fitted, the forward drivers will have 10BA crankpins with the bushes reamed and flanges filed to act as a nut... this method allows for a close fit behind the slidebars, it is important to win as much clearance as possible for the smooth rotation of the coupling rods and combined motion of the connecting rod and crosshead.

    [​IMG]


    Note also the hand made track which uses the correct height code rail for 95 lb RBS bullhead rail... plastic sleepers just don't cut it with me. All the track and pointwork on the Leek Station layout will be made this way.

    [​IMG]
     
    Keith M, jakesdad13, Torry and 4 others like this.
  14. paul_l

    paul_l Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    8,949
    Likes Received:
    4,904
    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2015
    Great progress Paul.

    Paul
     
    York Paul likes this.
  15. York Paul

    York Paul Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    5,313
    Likes Received:
    5,934
    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2017
    Thanks Paul... yes little by little its progressing ... just fitted sand pipe brackets and cut out the etches for the cylinder block.
     
  16. York Paul

    York Paul Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    5,313
    Likes Received:
    5,934
    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2017
    The kits gives us a very basic but equally strong front bogie, I found the etched beam springs needed filing away quite a bit at the top so the suspension arm links on the springs would align and fit into the bolster side frame holes... having fought this part of the build armed with two lengths of 0.9mm wire which holds each of the whole bogie side beams in position and soldered a basic frame together it was time for ... yes you guessed a good rummage in the scrap box for some bits and bobs to get good old scratch building underway. As we can see the bogie in its current form lacks any stability and is way too lightweight even if the kit supplied brass turned pivot and spring is fitted.

    [​IMG]

    So I made a floating box which slides inside a frame and has four brass pins with a micro spring fitted onto each shaft... this will allow some lateral side motion to the bogie, this box sits loosely inside the bogie and is held in position from the downward force of the pivot spring (not fitted in this pic as yet) and the retaining nut on the fixed pivot pin on the loco chassis assembly. The tiny 12BA nuts can be adjusted for tension to either increase or decrease sideways movement.... I had thought originally of soldering the box to the bogie but build tests so far suggest this is not necessary and the unit does not move out of position.

    [​IMG]

    Now to deal with the vertical springing which was easier said than done because too much spring tension would make bogie rotation stiff and therefore susceptible to derailment and potentially "lifting" the bogie wheels off the rails to spin in mid air so to speak. Also the large bulky spring provided would cause issues if the tension was lessened somewhat as this would force the bogie wheels down but at the same time lift the front of the loco chassis off the rails... so the answer was to use a smaller spring with less tension applied but just enough to spring the bogie. I made a pivot sleeve for the spring to fit onto and this slides into the sleeved hole on the carrier assembly as seen in the previous picture... the photo shows the pivot sleeve before being cut to a correct working length. So that takes care of the up and down movement and also the lateral side play.

    [​IMG]


    The whole assembly is now dry fitted onto the loco chassis and hey presto yes it works :cheers:... time for a drink me thinks. So tomorrows job is to make a limiting device which governs the amount of swing the bogie can make, such things have been fitted on my previous loco builds and have proved to work well... so more pictures of this tomorrow where hopefully the final item can be shown. At least now it can be said there is good bogie movement which doesn't snag on the sides of the mainframes and now I can form the front sand pipes and reshape those lifeguards into their correct profile.

    [​IMG]
     
    Keith M and Rob Pulham like this.
  17. Toto

    Toto I'm best ignored Staff Member Founder Administrator

    Messages:
    15,364
    Likes Received:
    3,795
    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2017
    Very nice. The bogie build is quite involved. Hopefully it will contribute to good around running.

    Nice work

    Toto
     
    York Paul likes this.
  18. York Paul

    York Paul Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    5,313
    Likes Received:
    5,934
    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2017
    Thank you Toto... in fact I had progressed a little further with the update as you were posting up, yes it is quite an involved thing to do and so far a dry run test "push" of the chassis through points on the Elton Crosssing layout hasn't flagged up problems, the bogie behaves as it should. Hopefully once the loco is finished, picking it up won't create any wild bogie swing and the truck will remain nicely aligned.
     
  19. paul_l

    paul_l Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
    8,949
    Likes Received:
    4,904
    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2015
    Nice one Paul, brings a new meaning to swinging

    Worth having a look at ABCgears download page there are specs for the motors and gearboxes. The motor info informs you of the Stall current for each motor - Your Canon 1833 motor Stall Current 2A, Max continuous current is 0.9A. So a 4mm decoder would do.

    Paul
     
    York Paul likes this.
  20. York Paul

    York Paul Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    5,313
    Likes Received:
    5,934
    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2017
    Gee thanks for researching that Paul ... what a relief using a 4mm decoder... motor I'm going to install is a VML2 ratio 26:1.
     
    paul_l likes this.

Share This Page