A 3D printing virgin

Discussion in 'Workshop Benches' started by Mossy, Aug 8, 2021.

  1. Mossy

    Mossy A classic grump Yorkshire man Full Member

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    I've been following the adventures of Paul L and his Highland 0-4-4 and Andy Sollis's Signal Box fun very closely asking a number of questions trying to understand the jargon, TLA's and how the whole process fits together. When I found out that Fusion 360 is available as a free download I just had to download a copy and experiment. Having spent my entire life designing software once I had grasps the concepts it proved remarkably easy to pick up the basics and I spent a couple of weeks drawing and drafting things. Like all software it has its quirks and curved balls so many restarts were necessary before I got anything acceptable. But its ultimately frustrating, having designed a model you just have to see it in the flesh, well I do. So a quick email to Paul asking the how, what's and why's of buying the gear he graciously responded with a detailed list of printers and prices, concentrating on the Anycubic Photon range which he personally uses.

    Being a short arms long pocketed Yorkshireman a bit of grubbing about on ebay and a Photon Mono (£129) and a Wash and Cure (£82) were won in auctions. Guess who the Seller was yep Anycubic.
    You can also buy them from Anycubic at £155 and £119 respectively so figure that one out.

    Everything has been assembled and the supplied test print produced to prove everything was working, I was ready to lose my virginity. To be continued tomorrow morning.

    Mossy
     
  2. paul_l

    paul_l Staff Member Administrator

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    And I remember someone saying "I'll never have one" :avatar:, I do remember saying something similar about O gauge :facepalm:.

    Welcome the 3d Printers club.

    Interestingly, when trying to answer one of your recent questions, I loaded up the Mono printer config. to check the settings and file extensions differences between the printers.

    I loaded up the HR Passenger tank roof. Angled it at 45 degrees in both the x & y planes.

    Auto added light supports, then added heavy supports in non-visible areas, to give .....

    upload_2021-8-8_23-12-17.png

    I also use a raft, this gives a base that sticks well to the buildplate.

    Using the default settings for the resin I got the following times

    Original Photon print time 10h 41m 48s, using 10.62 ml of resin
    Photon Mono (Mossy's printer) - print time 3h 38m 55s, again using 10.62ml of resin.

    The difference here is down to the Mono LCD print screen, cure time Photon uses 18 sec for each normal layer, and 115sec for each base layer, whereas the Mono uses 2 sec per normal layer and 40 sec for the base layer (probably could be reduced).

    On both of these printers I could have probably squeezed a second print on to the build plate (the rafts would overlap).

    Now for the Mono X print time 4h 5m 34s, and again 10.62 ml resin.

    Why is this longer than the Mono, it's down to the lift height, the Mono and Photon both lift the build plate 6mm to ensure the print comes off the fep. The Mono X is a bigger printer, and I've found a lift of 10mm is required to reliably get the print off the fep. Default setting for the Mono X is 8mm, but I kept getting failed prints, I'd rather take the extra time for the lift.

    However I could fit 6 on the build plate, and still only take 4h 5m 34s to print, and would use 63.6 ml resin (yep 6 x 10.62).

    When I ordered my Mono X my intension was to print small items on the Photons, and bigger items on the Mono X. The example print times above are reflected in the way I use the printers, I use the Mono X almost exclusively as the print times are so much faster, the exception will come if I need to print a whole passenger tank, as the 16h print time of the body on the Mono X would mask the 11h print time of the photon printing the roof. It probably explains why the price of the Photon has plumeted, and for me if either of the Photons developed a fault, I'd be tempted to replace them with a Mono rather than repair it :(.

    Another point to consider is File names and program usage.

    When you slice the model, it uses the Printer model config and resin to produce the print file, so over time I've realised I needed to get some structure to the file naming.

    So for the roof print above I used the following file naming schema

    All my files are in the HR Passenger Tank folder

    Project file - always worth saving as you can reload it and change the settings i.e. Printer model, resin type

    chit_05_stdGray_Roof_x6_v2.chitubox

    Print file

    chit_05_stdGray_Roof_v2_x6.pwmx

    the first section is the slicer software used chit (Chitubox) pws (Photon Workshop) lyc (Lychee)
    second section 05 - is the layer height used in this case 0.05mm, I also use 0.025 for the Mono X
    third is the resin profile used stdGray - my AnyCubic Standard Grey profile, I find this also works for the Anycubic Eco White resin, and Elegoo Grey resin
    Now the part name and quantity Roof_v2_x6
    and finally the file extension .pwmx, this is printer model dependant, for the Anycubic printers I tried to make files for, the original Photon is .photon, The Mono is .pwmo and the Mono X is .pwmx

    By saving the project file you can easily modify the settings then slice and save in the format you need, and when you need to print the file you can easily select the relevant file for the resing / printer setting you are about to use.

    Paul
     
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  3. paul_l

    paul_l Staff Member Administrator

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    Forgot to put the 6x models pic

    upload_2021-8-9_0-5-9.png

    Paul
     
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  4. Toto

    Toto I'm best ignored Staff Member Founder Administrator

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    The darkside has claimed another lamb to the slaughter I see.

    Toto
     
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  5. Mossy

    Mossy A classic grump Yorkshire man Full Member

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    Toto,

    I may be wearing a black plastic head mask 3d printed of course, but I haven't yet found any way of 3d printing the metallic voice so its a combo of Cleveland (home turf), Sheffield (University) and Leeds (home for the last 30 year).

    I feel the need to print a light sabre next - feel the force and all that.
     
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  6. Mossy

    Mossy A classic grump Yorkshire man Full Member

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    More on virginity.

    My first home spun print was a cluster of 4 W Irons, 1hr 16 mins they printed successfully with the caveat noted below and look very good.

    Sadly the photos I took were awful so they have been binned. It didn't help that when ordering the resin, I forgot to change the default option of black to grey.
    I used Chutibox's auto support option and failed to notice one corner of the section which fits behind the chassis was unsupported and didn't print properly.
    Lesson learned for next time. Having printed them 1mm thick, I am now wondering robust resin is and should I have thickened them up to 1.5mm or even 2mm.

    Given for a penny in for a pound, I am going for this today, it's a 4hr+ print but since I have some jobs to do this morning I will set it going and worry about it when I get back.

    2021-08-09.png

    It's the body of a NER D1/D2 Bolster wagon. Assuming it works next will be D1 and D2 Bolsters and Swing Plates.
    I am still drawing the brake gear to go with it, but struggling with the brake lever, has anyone got any good ideas?

    Paul, I quickly figured out the limiting factor to print times is the up/down time of each iteration of the print process and not the number of items on the build plate, so I agree the more you can get on to the plate the less prints you have to do. The slower print times of the Mono X I found interesting, but again its a trade off with the volume of prints on the plate. I thought buying Mono X at £550+ was a bit excessive for someone playing my Mono at £129 limits what can be printed, but was enough to pay for a first timer. Perhaps, never say never, who knows!!
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2021
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  7. paul_l

    paul_l Staff Member Administrator

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    Hi Mossy

    Even at full price I think the Mono is a good buy, and at the price you paid is a great deal. I may be tempted my self, faster cure times and only need to put half the resin into the vat.

    For the smaller printers, keep your trial 250ml resin bottle, once empty.

    I never put used resin back (that's resin that has been put into the vat) into the original bottle.
    I currently have 4 used resin bottles in use a 250ml bottle used for Green resin, 500ml bottles for Std Grey, Eco White and a re-purposed grey bottle for Craftsman Grey (basically washed out with used IPA, then cleaned in the Ultrasonic cleaner, and finally wased in water and allowed to dry. I know this is overkill, but I don't know if they are compatable.
    I have mixed standard resins, as my Black ran out I started to add fresh grey resin to the "used resin", and the same with Standard Grey and White.

    The resin will seperate out, so give the bottle a good shake before use. I don't always return the resin in the vat back to the used bottle after each print, but will give the resin a stir with the plastic scraper.
    At the end of each print job, if there is any evidence of a print fail, then empty the vat through a filter back into the used bottle, then clean and check the fep.

    Paul
     
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  8. Mossy

    Mossy A classic grump Yorkshire man Full Member

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    Paul, thanks for the advice, sadly I didn't get a250ml sample - perhaps that accounts for the £24 difference in price.
    It sounds like I need some screw top bottles to store stuff in but I have got this:

    6C3A7235.JPG 6C3A7236.JPG

    I am printing the bolsters and swing plates next, then most of the running gear, but I am struggling with the pesky brake lever.

    There;s a couple of things that have shown up, a) the sides were printed 1mm thick - they are almost translucent, so need thickening up next time, b) I forgot to cut a hole in the floor to locate the bolster but that shouldn't be a difficult fix and c) I can feel layering especially on the wagon floor but its also slightly visible on the sides, do I reduce the layering from .05mm to say .03mm with the attendant increased print time or is this something that can be sorted with anti-aliasing, not that I have a clue what that is.

    Hey ho, I am a now a fully deflowered virgin, so onwards to better things.

    Mossy
     
  9. paul_l

    paul_l Staff Member Administrator

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    Hi Mossy

    Dunna worry about it you soon will have an empty bottle ;)

    The print is looking good, I can see a fleet of these running soon :thumbs:.

    Just think in 4mm you could print 3 at a a time.

    I seem to remember the black is semi-translucent, just like the green, it also allows it to cure better.
    If the sides feel strong enough, and they print ok then give it a go.

    What angle did you print it at ?

    As a test (if you want to try it)

    From the Any cubic site your XY Res.: 0.051mm

    So try setting the layer height to 0.051, and rotate the model 45 degrees on both the X & Y axis, you may need to rotate the Z to get the model to fit better on the build plate.

    If it works, the lines on the end should disapear.

    Paul
     
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  10. Mossy

    Mossy A classic grump Yorkshire man Full Member

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    I quit 4mm about 25 years ago and I'm not going back.

    That wagon body was printed at 30 degrees. Playing around this afternoon I can just get 40 x something x something but its a very tight fit.

    After making a couple of corrections I will try another print. The bolsters and swing plates look good, but the brake gear is incredibly flimsy, so that will certainly need beefing up.
    None of them have been cut from the supports yet, that's a job for post tea.

    I'm guessing the layer height is in the chutibox settings u will have a look later,
     
  11. Rob Pulham

    Rob Pulham Happily making models Staff Member Administrator Feature Contributor

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    Yes, presumably you are thinking of them being bent in multi planes similar to the Rocking lever below? (NER S3 inside motion)?
    B16-1 Rocking shaft.png

    it's done like this

    Rocking shaft sketch 1.JPG

    Rocking shaft sketch 2.JPG

    Rocking shaft sketch 3.JPG

    Then extrude the first sketch

    Rocking shaft Extrude 1.JPG

    Then extrude the second sketch using the intersect command rather than new body or join
    Rocking shaft Extrude 2.JPG
     
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  12. Rob Pulham

    Rob Pulham Happily making models Staff Member Administrator Feature Contributor

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    Does it matter that they are translucent ( I am thinking that paint and weathering will cure that) or are they just not thick enough?
     
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  13. Mossy

    Mossy A classic grump Yorkshire man Full Member

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    Hi Rob,

    This is the D1 wagon that you liked the .stl file of, although I have also drawn and printed the patent swinging bolster plate and slightly different bolster of the D2, so I can create either D1 or D2 wagons.

    The sides are certainly strong enough although I am still temped to beef them us by .5mm and yes paint etc would I presume eliminate the translucency.

    I have abandoned the brake gear its just to brittle, I couldn't even snip the supports off without the actual print snapping - there is bound to be a limit to the technology.
    Everything else has printed very well, there's a couple of places where there wasn't enough support, but that's just the learning curve game although I have beefed up the W irons and they feel much better.

    As for the brake lever, if I am going down the route of buying etched brakes, I am guessing that would include the levers so for now I am leaving that part of the project, but thanks for the explanation of how to do them. I may well come back to it at a later date.

    First thing is to resolve the print graining visible on most parts, hopefully I can do another print tomorrow.

    Keep well mate

    Mossy
     
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  14. Andy_Sollis

    Andy_Sollis Full Member

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    :giggle::giggle::giggle:
    will soon be the platform 1 3D modellers forum! :avatar::avatar:
     
  15. Andy_Sollis

    Andy_Sollis Full Member

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    Fascinating… I have no idea how you did that! :giggle:

    Maybe I still have something to learn Rob!
     
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  16. Andy_Sollis

    Andy_Sollis Full Member

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    im not sure if yours will do the .25mm layer height ? But that may help reduce the lines…

    I’ve had to redraw the bricks on one of my models as I’ve discovered the horizontal mortar lines show but the same gap vertical doesn’t display the same. So had to increase the gap..

    likewise as you have found, sometimes things have to be slightly over scale. Many times it’s not actually visible in the models anyway.
    Best of luck with it all..

    I’m at a full stop awaiting a new FEP and then I’ll need some more resin. Likely to be Sept before I’m going again due to current financial demand else where in the family (wife just gone back to work after maternity so half pay)

    andy
     
  17. paul_l

    paul_l Staff Member Administrator

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    Hi Mossy

    For the brake gear, tilt the gear 15 to 30 degrees.
    Use light supports only, reduce the Contact Depth, and you may need to up the Density %

    upload_2021-8-9_23-30-10.png

    The contact depth is the distance into the model the support embeds into the model.

    Oh I forgot change the Contact shape from none to sphere.

    By reducing the contact depth and changing to a sphere the contact patch is smaller, hence the reason to up the Density to increase the number of supports so that the model is still held in position.

    Once the print is completed wash then remove the supports they should be soft and come of easily.

    Paul
     
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  18. Mossy

    Mossy A classic grump Yorkshire man Full Member

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    Andy, Chutibox accepts a layers of .025, but for the moment I am going with Pauls suggestions of 45 degrees and 45 degrees. Its a very tight fit but fits just!

    Paul, I have set of a second print of the body, 5hr+, while its running I will redraw the brake gear slightly beefed up and follow your suggestion lets hope it works, fingers crossed.
    So far I have waited until after curing before removing the supports so with soft resin they should come off more easily.

    Thanks for all the advice its really appreciated. Toto seem to think there a 3d printing take over happening on this forum. do you know of any other disciples?

    Just as an after thought have either of you managed to create wagon springs in fusion 360, I have been mulling over how to do it for days without a sensible plan, after all that the next step on this bolster project
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2021
  19. paul_l

    paul_l Staff Member Administrator

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    Hi Mossy

    There are a few devotee's of the black art within the forum, and we're growing in number :thumbs:

    For springs, I thought about using concentric tubular cylinders with a wall thickness of approx 1mm, put a 0.1 or 0.2 mm radius fillet on both edges, then join to the next tube.
    However in fusion there is the ability for offsets, so again something similar could be done.

    Or

    Import a photo of the spring as a canvas, and trace the spring assembly.

    I need to work on the second option as I now have my Fusion 360 learning projects, I ordered 3 sets of drawings from the Gauge O Guild library. The drawings have dia grams for 5 wagons between them

    3811 HR Lowsided & 8 Tons Medium wagons
    3810 HR 8 Ton Ventillated Meat Van
    3809 HR 8 Ton goods wagon - Type A, & HR 7 Ton Timber wagon Type L

    The wagons all have 9ft wheelbase, the meat van has an 11ft wheel base.

    For the W irons, I'm not sure whether to 3D print them, or buy in etched ones or etch my own :scratchchin:

    Paul
     
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  20. Andy_Sollis

    Andy_Sollis Full Member

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    Mossy,
    I tend to take the model off the support pre cure but post wash.. unless it’s one where in need the model to be hard first.. comes with guesstimating..
    Very few times now will I cure a model on the support scaffold. Makes less damage when removed.

    andy
     
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